Mackenzie's worst course

[Josh Stevens]

I was listening to the latest episode of State of the Game the other day, and Clayts mentioned playing at Bingley St Ives, calling it the worst of Alister MAckenzie's courses.

I confess I have never heard of the place, but yes it does not look a great piece of land from the website.  Is it bad, or just less good?

[Bill_McBride]

Then or now?

Sharp Park must have been extraordinary when it opened, no sea wall, optional route Mackenzie holes, no highway, no holes up in the hills across the highway. 

[Garland Bayley]

Andrew, I think Bingley St Ives is by Alistair's brother, Charles.  Tom Doak certainly includes it in his list of wrongly attributed courses.  Fulford is another that is often attributed to the wrong MacKenzie.

Depends on which MacKenzie you are talking about.

[Josh Stevens]

AH, the black sheep.

[Garland Bayley]

Not having played any of AM's courses, I can only report that one of our posters said he hated Weston super-mare, and regretted going there.

[Bill_McBride]

Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall.  Let us know how you like it. 

[Ryan Coles]

Weston is like TOC. Hookers paradise and leaves people underwhelmed after the first visit.

[Mike_Clayton]

Josh

I had always assumed it was Alister MacKenzie because Tom attributed it to him in the CG.

It wasn't terrible by any means and there were some good holes at the top end of the course from memory. We played there in the early 80s so its been a while. It might be the only course in the world starting and finishing with a par three.

We played there in 1983, went back to the place we were staying to be told about Jack Newton's accident. It's one of those moments you always remember.

Ken Brown tells a classic story of a couple of Yorkshire farmers watching from over the fence in '83.
He was playing with Sandy Lyle and over-heard them say  'That's Sandy Lyle - I like him but that Ken Brown - he's slower than soil erosion'

[Greg Gilson]

Troon Portland. I have nowhere near played them all but I have played quite a few of The Doc's and its this & daylight second (or is that first) IMHO?

PS. Sticklers might note that Fernie was the original archie but I understand whats left is mostly the Doc's.

[Sean_A]

Weston-super-Mare isn't a bad course at all.  We must remember that Dr Mac inherited some stuff and some stuff has been changed. 

The Dr Mac courses fairly close to me have all had some radical changes to the designs which alters the overall product quite a bit.  The two most disappointing Dr Macs I have seen are Worcester and Sutton Coldfield.  Not that either are bad courses and I like Sutton Coldfield quite a bit.  Both courses have allowed trees and/or rough to completely destroy the design.  At Sutton Coldfield tons of fairway bunkers have been abandoned and fairways narrowed considerably.  The course is tough, but the difficulty is nearly all predicated on strangling rough and trees.  Such a shame because the location in Sutton Park close to Birmingham is outstanding.  At Worcester there is a wonderful set of greens which require approaching from correct angles.  The trees completely take this aspect of the design out of play.  Now there is little chance for heroic recovery from a bad angle, just chip outs mostly.  Again, a huge shame because the course is a wonderful amenity for the city of Worcester being just across the Severn. 

Ciao     

[Adrian_Stiff]

Weston & Lilleybrook are the two Mackenzies around here. Of the 99% that don't know that they are of the same hand of the man that designed Augusta, when told most would have a blank stare.

Lilleybrook is on very steep land and its hard to find much love for the back 7 holes.

Weston is not blessed with much ripple.

In Macs defence, it is not his fault the land was less than inspiring but it does tell the story that its better to have better land than the best architect and perfection would be to have both and pergatory would be to have neither.

[Thomas Dai]

MacKenzie comments are reminding me of the recent debate on the merits of Braids work on pages 2 & 3 of the recent Perranporth thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59279.0.html.
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I have played many courses attributed to Dr. Mac. The difficulty is that many have been changed beyond recognition and so it is probably not fair to criticise what is there now as poor Dr. Mac GCA. Hedingly in Leeds is a good example which has great routing and green locations but very mundane greens. The routing is all that is really left of the good doctor. I suppose the worst I have played is Sitwell Park but then again the is almost nothing left there.

Mike C,

it was The Laurence Batley that used to be held at Bingley St. Ives. I remember watching you there for a couple of holes though I am afraid the pull of Sandy Lyle, Bernhard Langer and Nick Faldo led my 14 year old self to following others at bit more. The course is not so bad with some good holes on the tops. The first was usually a short par 4 which mad much more sense. Along with the tournaments at Fulford (York) and Moortown/Sandmoor (Leeds) there used to be quite a bit of live golf available in Yorkshire in the 70's and 80's

Jon

[Mike_Clayton]

Jon,

Those three guys were awfully good back then - Lyle and Langer especially. Faldo was a whole new swing away from becoming the great player he did.

It was the Laurence Batley - a nice old bloke how seemingly made a fortune out of cash and carry supermarkets - what ever they were.I never quite figured it out.
The B&H was a really good week up at Fulford and it was never the same once they moved to St Mellion where the combination of brutal course and brutal weather wore pretty thin.
It is amazing there is now only one event in England on the European Tour.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,

Cash & Carry is a supplier for the shop, restaurant, hotel etc. trade.  He also sold carpets which made him quite a bit. I know he sponsored a seniors event for many years after the European Tour became too expensive. I remember watching players hitting balls to their caddies at the other end of the practice ground to catch.

Now Jack Newton is a good case of what might have been....

[Mike_Clayton]

Jon

Jack was playing poorly at the time. He had lost his card in America - maybe in 1982 and only two years after he was 2nd to Seve at Augusta - and his plan had been to go and qualify for the 1983 Open at Birkdale but he fatefully decided to stay in Australia and do the television with Ian Chappell, the cricketer.
His accident was only a week later. He was 33 but it seemed at the time his best golf was behind him.

[Emil Weber]

It might be the only course in the world starting and finishing with a par three.

Mike,
Golf de Divonne in  France does too. I think it has staged a Senior Tour Event actually, wonder if they would change the routing for that...

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall.  Let us know how you like it. 

I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.

[Bill_McBride]

Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall.  Let us know how you like it. 

I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.

Well, at least stop by and take a look!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall.  Let us know how you like it. 

I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.

Well, at least stop by and take a look!

Our tee times at B&B are late morning. Perhaps you can take a look before we play there.

[Ryan Coles]

Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall.  Let us know how you like it. 

I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.

Well, at least stop by and take a look!

£60 mid week! With the exception of Burnham that is the highest green fee in the county and surrounding counties.

I'd want Mackenzie to caddie for me as well for that price.

Good luck to them if people pay it.

[Sean_A]

Garland, you can pop in to play Weston Super Mare yourself, it's right along the route LHR-Cornwall.  Let us know how you like it. 

I actually had intended to play it. When researching in January, their website put their summer green fee at 40 pounds. When revisiting their site this summer, they had raised it to 60 pounds. Inflation must be pretty high in England these days. I concluded after reading about it here that I would be skipping it and spending the day playing the Channel course instead.

£40 is pushing it, I wouldn't pay that much.  £60 is stupid.  The Channel Course is better than W-s-M.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

The worst MacKenzie course I've seen is probably Redlands in California ... I can't remember if that was a redesign or brand new.  It's too tight, and it's also a pocket for all the smog coming out of L.A.

[Rich Goodale]

I was going to say Dalmunzie in Scotland, but I looked up their website for the first time in many years and they now claim that it is an original Tom Simpson!

[Chris DeToro]

Now I know which courses to avoid!