[Mark Chaplin]

I don't think Pine Valley is that tough for a low marker, it's extremely hard for the higher handicap player who will miss 4 or 5 fairways and rack up a big score. The "Mickleson" course at Whisper Rock is pretty tough from the back tees.

[Pete Blaisdell]

  Have played 7 of the 9 and any such listing is open to many opinions but I feel there is one glaring omission.

  Butler National is as tough as they come.

  On a local level, the Shattuck Inn Golf Course at the base of Mt. Monadnock in Jaffrey, NH will test your patience and resolve. For a number of years , the course record was 77 from the tips by Charlie Bolling. The " Devil's Triangle , a stretch of three holes(Par 3, 4 and 3) in the middle of a swamp is the stuff of legend and disaster up here in the sticks.

[Chris DeToro]

Wolf Run in Indianapolis is also notoriously difficult

[Josh Tarble]

Wolf Run in Indianapolis is also notoriously difficult

To me Wolf Run is the second hardest course I've ever played.  Right behind Erin Hills.  But I played Erin Hills at about 7400 and Wolf Run at about 6600 

[Jay Flemma]

WFW is not as hard as it seems.  It's tough on pros, and it's tough on peopl eho try to overpower it or make mental errors.  But if you keep the ball in front of you and take care to pitch and putt carefully, an amateur can get around with a respectable score.  The members keep the course quite playable for regular play - completely different from Oakmont, which revels in the challenge.  Equally fun...but murder on your handicap:)  Frequently venues that are tough for pros are actually more playable for ams as long as they minimize the mistakes.  what is it our man Pat Mucci says? "No penalties, no three putts, double chips?" (or somthing like that?).

Whistling Straits is not hard at all when you figure out the angles.  That's the secret to Pete Dye Golf. But whoever noticed that they kept to the usual suspects - and especially major venues - was right.  I don't think that's Pete's hardest course at all.

The list glorifies harder is better though, in my opinion.  I think if we out our thinking caps on, we might find several courses much harder, as many of you are showing.

[Michael Marzec]

Yes, all lists are stupid. Except the grocery list, you'd better not disregard that. But, as social media has shown us, the great unwashed masses devour lists with a passion. So if you can't beat 'em...

I have not played most of those courses, but I have played No. 1 and I also would put Ko'olau right up there in terms of pure masochism. The setting alone makes it akin to playing one of those imaginary courses on video games. My guess is that its financial difficulties have overshadowed its playing difficulties. When I played it some 5 or 6 years ago, there were definitely some maintenance issues, largely due to the fact that it rains quite a bit on that side of the mountains and apparently the Presbyterian Church is not getting any divine intervention on that matter.

While I am talking about make-believe golf courses, I would think Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV, would be a handful from the back tees. I did not play it as such so I cannot say for sure. But the ratings are certainly there. Not a ton of strategy, but lots of forced carries and elevation changes. My recollection is the fairways were generous, but if you missed one you were either down a ravine or up a mountainside with a penalty stroke in either case. Just a thought...

[Carson Pilcher]

I agree with the thoughts on the Straits course.  It looks a lot more difficult than it plays.  I actually don't think it is that tough of a course.  On site the River course is much harder and I think the Irish course is tougher as well.  Also agree that Erin Hills is tougher.

Agreed.  I played Straits.  I actually scored well, but I thought it was very difficult (so maybe it just "looked" difficult).  However, I played the River the next day, and it was ridiculous!!

[Carl Nichols]

How many folks have played Whistling Straits from the tips in a decent wind?  It's 7800 yards (!) from those tees.  As just one example, 18 is semi-manageable from other tees, but becomes a 520-yard par 4 from the tips with a super-hard second shot.  I don't think its 77.2 course rating is that crazy.

I have.  It was about 60 degrees that day as well.

I maintain that it isn't that difficult, if you play within your own game.  Fairways are wide, there aren't massive carries and not a ton of water.  Will it be difficult? Yes, but not even close to as hard as the same circumstances as Erin Hills.

Impressive.  I haven't played Erin Hills so can't compare.  What did you shoot at Straits from the tips?

[Philip Caccamise]

  Have played 7 of the 9 and any such listing is open to many opinions but I feel there is one glaring omission.

  Butler National is as tough as they come.

  On a local level, the Shattuck Inn Golf Course at the base of Mt. Monadnock in Jaffrey, NH will test your patience and resolve. For a number of years , the course record was 77 from the tips by Charlie Bolling. The " Devil's Triangle , a stretch of three holes(Par 3, 4 and 3) in the middle of a swamp is the stuff of legend and disaster up here in the sticks.

The Shattuck is probably the hardest 6700 yard course I've ever played.

[Josh Tarble]

How many folks have played Whistling Straits from the tips in a decent wind?  It's 7800 yards (!) from those tees.  As just one example, 18 is semi-manageable from other tees, but becomes a 520-yard par 4 from the tips with a super-hard second shot.  I don't think its 77.2 course rating is that crazy.

I have.  It was about 60 degrees that day as well.

I maintain that it isn't that difficult, if you play within your own game.  Fairways are wide, there aren't massive carries and not a ton of water.  Will it be difficult? Yes, but not even close to as hard as the same circumstances as Erin Hills.

Impressive.  I haven't played Erin Hills so can't compare.  What did you shoot at Straits from the tips?

I shot 80 with a bogey from the fairway on 18    I think that was within 1 or 2 of my handicap.

Granted, I do it hit further than most, but the width of the fairways is what makes it more playable than a lot of places.  Plus, as much as the 1000 bunkers are over the top, they do make wayward shots very playable.  At Erin Hills, the narrow fairways, blind shots and ball swallowing rough make big numbers very frequent.

[mark chalfant]

Oak Tree and Kiawah are two of the toughest I have seen.  I hope to see Butler some day  soon.  Im curious if Galloway National or
Grand  Traverse are top 10-15

[Chris DeToro]

Never understood Grand Traverse's inclusion to be honest.  Purgatory in Indianapolis has a very high CR and Slope as well, but I didn't find that to be nearly as difficult as some of these others

Wolf Run and Sawgrass are probably the toughest I've played

[J_ Crisham]

I played at Butler 2 weeks ago with a Tour Player who is one of the top 5 in driving distances. He commented that Buyler is as hard as anything he plays worldwide. The last time he played Butler he said he had 5 birdies and 5 doubles. I've played about half of the courses listed and Butler is a glaring omission IMO .

[Mike Treitler]

Whistling Straits can definitely be played.   It just depends on the distance you play it from.  

Play it from 7400 and its absolutley brutal... but what course wouldn't be?  

The greens at Whistling Straits are actually way easier than they are at the River at blackwolf run.   Keep it in the fairway and you can manage it.

[Matt Glore]

I agree with the thoughts on the Straits course.  It looks a lot more difficult than it plays.  I actually don't think it is that tough of a course.  On site the River course is much harder and I think the Irish course is tougher as well.  Also agree that Erin Hills is tougher.

Agreed.  I played Straits.  I actually scored well, but I thought it was very difficult (so maybe it just "looked" difficult).  However, I played the River the next day, and it was ridiculous!!

Played the River/WS/ and Erin Hills in back to back to back days.  
I played Whistling with 0 wind and Erin Hills with a constant 15-20mph and Whistling was still harder.  The River might be the hardest of the bunch.  The River Course's greens were running lightning speeds that day and scoring was impossible.  
I think if you put them all together with the same weather I think the Straits is the toughest course, remember there are some really long holes out there if they want to set it up that way.  
I think French Lick Pete Dye course at 8000+ yards and those greens is much tougher.

[Mike Treitler]

Distance is the  big varying factor here.. are we talking about from the TIPS?   Or from the recommended set of tees based on your handicap.

Erin Hills is 8,000 from the tips....

[Andrew Buck]

The article is based mostly on course ratings and slopes.

The dumbest part is that they calculate the average 16-handicapper's "expected score", not factoring in that he will be petrified by the green speeds at Oakmont, or that his handicap is based on the top 50% of his rounds.  So they show expected scores of 94-97 for these courses, when most 16-handicappers would be unlikely to break 110 from the back tees.

The dumbest part would be any 16 handicap (or 2 handicap for that matter) playing the back tees at any of those courses.  Unless you're a legitimate + handicap, playing from over 7,200 - 7,300 yards just seems silly.

[Chris DeToro]

The article is based mostly on course ratings and slopes.

The dumbest part is that they calculate the average 16-handicapper's "expected score", not factoring in that he will be petrified by the green speeds at Oakmont, or that his handicap is based on the top 50% of his rounds.  So they show expected scores of 94-97 for these courses, when most 16-handicappers would be unlikely to break 110 from the back tees.

The dumbest part would be any 16 handicap (or 2 handicap for that matter) playing the back tees at any of those courses.  Unless you're a legitimate + handicap, playing from over 7,200 - 7,300 yards just seems silly.

Exactly!  Tour pros don't have much issue with Whistling Straits during the events with winning scores of -8 ('04 PGA), -6 ('07 US Senior Open) and -11 ('10 PGA)

Any course from that distance is going to be hard for a 16 handicap.  But one that's that long and has more water hazards (Sawgrass?  PGA National?) is bound to be tougher

[Jon Wiggett]

Well here in the UK the original version of St. Mellion would be way up there and of course Carnasty from the back tees with any sort of wind.

Jon

[Frank Giordano]

A friend -- golf course architect by profession -- once told me, "Any fool can design a course that's too hard to play."    Apparently, along with some very great architects, plenty of fools have.

But why?

[Terry Lavin]

IMO, Butler is even tougher than Oakmont, because the angle of attack into just about every green is extraordinarily demanding. Oakmont is killer hard because of distance, green speeds and the omnipresent natural hazards, but most of the greens are pretty accessible. WS has 1000 bunkers, distance and tough greens.

Just typing that exhausted me. I couldn't imagine playing these courses on a regular basis.

[John McCarthy]

IIRC, Butler was not the hardest in the CDGA.  Rich Harvest astroturf and Bull Valley were higher rated, sloped.  And lest we forget Bon Vivant, the NLE bear of Bourbonnais.

[Matt Kardash]

I don't know if you guys remember but the scoring average in the 2nd round at the 2012 PGA championship at Kiawah was something like 79! Yes, the wind was up that day, but it is a seaside course so that is part of the nature of the course. I believe it was the highest scoring average in PGA history. There are not many, if any courses that can cause the best players in the world to score 79 as an average. Rory's 2nd round 75(!!) was seen as a great score and propelled him to victory! Kiawah has its place on this list.

Also, Vijay Singh won the 2004 PGA at Whistling Straits with a final round 76. That was the highest final round score for a champion in major championship history.

[Dave Doxey]

  Have played 7 of the 9 and any such listing is open to many opinions but I feel there is one glaring omission.

  Butler National is as tough as they come.

  On a local level, the Shattuck Inn Golf Course at the base of Mt. Monadnock in Jaffrey, NH will test your patience and resolve. For a number of years , the course record was 77 from the tips by Charlie Bolling. The " Devil's Triangle , a stretch of three holes(Par 3, 4 and 3) in the middle of a swamp is the stuff of legend and disaster up here in the sticks.

Shattuck Inn also came to mind for me.  Rating/slope is 73.5/153. I doubt that it would win any design awards, but it it a beautiful setting.  It's been 20+ years since I last played it and I'm sure that it's the hardest course that I've played. I know that the place has had economic ups & downs over the years.  Good to see that they're still open.  When I lived in New England, a few of us made an annual pilgrimage to get beat up by that layout.

[Mark Johnson]

played it for the first time last weekend.  definitely something everyone should experience once.


While difficult, I wouldn't put it in the 10 toughest courses I have ever played.  Very target golf, but doable if you check your pride at the tee and committ to hitting hybrid on 7-9 holes.


For a public course with alot of play, I was actually quite impressed with the level of conditioning of the course.   Reminds me a good deal of Prairie Landing in West Chicago, if it had some elevation.

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