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DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2003, 09:12:25 PM »
DMoriarty,

I find it comical that many on this site request that the site interview different architects, yet, when those architects aren't in agreement with some on this site, their opinions are dismissed, or claimed to be part of some huge, well organized conspiracy.

If other architects render their opinions, as some request, then shouldn't those opinions be respected ??  ;D

A good question Patrick, but I am not sure why you are asking me or asking on this particular thread . . .  I dont recall suggesting that other architects come around here to be beaten about.  

But in answer to your question, I have mixed feelings.  Certainly we should all respect each others good faith opinions, so long as we leave a little room for some good faith ribbing and sarcasm directed at our friends.  

And we should definitely give extra deference to those with expertise and accomplishment (I would include Fazio, R. Jones, Nicklaus in this group) and who choose to come here too explain their views.

That being said, this is a forum wherein views are questioned, challenged, then questioned again.  Those coming in to discuss their ideas should expect to have them challenged.  But, we should challenge politely, otherwise no one will ever come again.  Even when commenting on an interview, we should keep in mind that these people came here as guests and should be treated as such even after they depart.  

But ultimately, this is Ran's department dont you think?  It is his website, and it is up to him to set the tone of the interview section.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 09:16:32 PM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2003, 09:16:10 PM »
I don't suppose anyone has access to the actual Golf numbers?  I would be very interested in seeing how the rankings would change if we took out the architects.  

Seems likely that, if the architects weren't included, Golf would have to edit their statement that "no course in the top 10 was built in the past 70 yrs."

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2003, 07:58:36 AM »
Maybe the architects should eliminated completely from the ranking process thereby eliminating any bias whatsoever and giving the power to the people who PLAY the game.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2003, 03:39:19 PM »
Maybe the architects should eliminated completely from the ranking process thereby eliminating any bias whatsoever and giving the power to the people who PLAY the game.

Gene, I understand why you would suggest this, but I would not go quite so far.  In theory, architects might have some much insight into the work of others, and I think it appropriate that they have a say in what is considered best.  

That being said, dont think Golf M. should allow them to remain anonomous regarding their opinions.   If Architect X wants to rank Torrey Pines the one of the best courses in the world, then let him, but let us know the way he feels.   Same thing if Architect Y doesnt like PD or Sand Hills, relative to the rest.  Let him come out and admit it.  Maybe even give him the opportunity explain.  

This might end to possible bias, or at least might expose it.  Imagine having to explain why you think Torrey Pines is quite a bit better than Pacific Dunes.

Regards,

David.    

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2003, 05:06:29 PM »
DMoriarty,

It's not a matter of exempting their opinions from question, it's the tone of dismissal regarding their opinions, as if they didn't think about them, or that they don't have the capacity to understand.

Remember too, that many on this site prefer the classic to the modern design style, so their opinions might be inherently different from those of the modern day architects.

That doesn't make their opinions invalid, just different.

DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2003, 01:59:19 AM »
DMoriarty,

It's not a matter of exempting their opinions from question, it's the tone of dismissal regarding their opinions, as if they didn't think about them, or that they don't have the capacity to understand.

Remember too, that many on this site prefer the classic to the modern design style, so their opinions might be inherently different from those of the modern day architects.

That doesn't make their opinions invalid, just different.

I was taught never to use passive voice or indefinite pronouns because they confuse the reader and muddle the identity of just who is doing the doing.   But some find passive voice and indefinite pronouns to be useful tools-- if muddying the identity of the actor is their goal.  Some even use passive voice and indefinite pronouns to make accusations while stopping just short of identifying the accused.  Grammar's rhetorical uses can be quite interesting, dont you think?  

Anyway, I dont really think I have anything to add to my previous post, at least until I figure out just exactly to whom you are referring, and the basis for your concern.

On another note, I thought you might be quite interested in this thread, as it seems to offer you an opportunity to try to hunt out bias.  Mind you, I am not saying that there is bias, but there might be enough inexplicable conduct to bring into question whether the architects are truly evaluating courses without bias.  (I am assuming that you would hold them to the same bias standards you apply here.)  

Now again I am not claiming bias.  But I am trying to figure out whether the following are an indication of bias, or whether there is a well thought, well informed, good faith reason for the ratings.   Will you help me out?

1.  Torrey Pines South.  The architects (at least the ones that voted on the course) picked Torrey Pines South 57th in the world.  But since this wasnt enough to boost Torrey South into the top 100 in the world, I think it safe to assume that the other voters didnt even have Torrey close to the top 100.  Moreover, most of those who have played Torrey and have commented that they think that 57th in the world is higher than it should be, and not by a little bit.  

2.   Pacific Dunes.  Again, the architects view Pacific Dunes quite differently than do the rest of the voters.  The architects had Pacific Dunes at 76, while the final list had PD at 19.  Presumably, without the architects dragging down the score, Pacific Dunes would have been voted better than 19.  Now you have seen Pacific Dunes and many of the other courses on the list.  Can you think of any logical reason why the architects (who voted) had less regard for Pacific Dunes than the rest.  

3.  I noted above that the "overrated" courses seem to be scewed toward the older.  The opposite appears to be true of the "underrated," especially if we consider renovation dates.  Any explanation?  

Is it all explained by your suggestion that those on this site prefer classic design over modern, and this prediliction might be inherently different than the architects as a group?   Wouldnt the opposite be true?  Wouldnt these results suggest that the architects as a whole have a prediliction toward modern courses as opposed to classic courses?  

And if the architects have a prediliction toward modern courses, should we consider that a bias?  

At the very least, isnt this prediliction something that Golf should tell the reader, so the reader might understand what they are reading?

Just curious as to your opinion.

Regards

David

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2003, 11:56:04 AM »
DMoriarty,

It would be an unusual group of fellows that would acquiesce to the idea that those dead fellows, with rudimentary equipment were able to design and build better courses then they can design and build today.

They are not disinterested third parties.

Collectively and individually they do have a vested interest in the results.

I would recuse (sp?)  them from the panel.

They have an inherent bias, wouldn't you agree ???

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2003, 12:51:48 PM »
David,

Didn't both Darwin and Longhurst use the passive voice with great effect?

DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2003, 05:32:11 PM »
David,

Didn't both Darwin and Longhurst use the passive voice with great effect?

Most definitely.  In golf, language, and life, some things are best explored in a less than direct manner.

ian

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2003, 05:33:30 PM »
Gene,

They eliminated the architects from the Canadian list (by Score). It was felt they had too much to win or lose from the rating game.

A little note on that case, a couple of really out of the way courses became the  most notable victims.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 05:34:52 PM by Ian Andrew »

DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2003, 05:38:28 PM »
DMoriarty,

It would be an unusual group of fellows that would acquiesce to the idea that those dead fellows, with rudimentary equipment were able to design and build better courses then they can design and build today.

They are not disinterested third parties.

Collectively and individually they do have a vested interest in the results.

I would recuse (sp?)  them from the panel.

They have an inherent bias, wouldn't you agree ???

I agree that they have a vested interest, and that maybe the vested interest is shaping their belief system.  But still, I think that they really believe that they have made the correct choices.

So instead of recusing them, I would rather that GM publish their ratings and offer them a chance to explain their criteria and choices.  This way, we might all gain valuable insight into the principles that drive these guys.  If I was a developer or a potential club member, I would be very interested in which courses my potential achitects thought great, and why.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2003, 07:09:16 PM »
DMoriarty,

If I was a developer or a potential club member, I would be very interested in which courses my potential achitects thought great, and why.

In my limited experience, it is a rare member that inquires about that.   I think you, me and many on this site are the exception rather than the rule.

T_MacWood

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2003, 07:53:22 PM »
You are bound to get some wacky results when you have such a small sample....especially on courses that are brand new or isolated. I would assume some of those architect numbers are the result of one or two votes....hardly scientific. For example how many of the 14 architects have seen the new Torrey Pines...at least one...RJ. # 57 in the world is most likely the result of his one vote (or possibly he and another)...if its two votes I reckon Rees had in the top 25 in the world. Is it that good?

Architects can't vote for courses they designed...should they expand that to courses they have largely redsigned?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 07:53:49 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2003, 08:13:03 PM »
David;

I'd love to know how many Golf Magazine raters have to see a course before it is considered.  


brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2003, 08:41:33 PM »
Isn't the number 10?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2003, 09:47:35 PM »
Brad;

I know that's the number for Golfweekratings.

I'm not sure I've ever heard the number for Golf Magazine.  

p.s.  When are we playing again??   :)

DMoriarty

Re:Golf's "Overrated" List: Does Tom Doak Have Really Bad Taste?
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2003, 12:33:09 AM »
In my limited experience, it is a rare member that inquires about that.   I think you, me and many on this site are the exception rather than the rule.

I agree.  But if the individual ratings were listed in Golf, these potential members might be inclined to take a look.   I would guess that potential members of clubs with new or planned courses would be the most interested in this type of information, since often they are just buying into the architect's plan.