[Patrick_Mucci]

the best green complexes in golf ?

Which green complexes do you think are better ?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Hard to come up with a demonstrative best, but they should be in the conversation for a grouping of the best of best.  A good case could be made for:  NGLA, Friars Head, Sand Hills, Dismal River Red, Ballyneal, Royal Melbourne, Crystal Downs,  and a few Ross courses.

[Matt_Cohn]

What does "green complexes" mean?

[Tom_Doak]

I use "greens complex" to talk about the green and the various short grass areas and hazards around it.

I think Pasatiempo has a great set of GREENS, but not a particularly great set of greens complexes.  Most of the greens are just surrounded by a lot of bunkers, where you are not thinking about hedging to one side or the other, because both sides are tightly guarded.

My stock answer for "best greens complexes" is Pinehurst No. 2, even though a case can be made that they are repetitive.  Royal Melbourne is another great answer.  Crystal Downs is another.

[Cristian]

Q1 -I really like the green complexes at Pasa, but No

Q2 -Augusta National

Although not everybody agrees with all the changes here over the years, it remains one of the most strategically defended set of golf greens on any course that I have seen. It is the anthesis of the symmetrically defended greens which are found in great majority on almost all golf courses, including quite a few golden age or more recent so called minimalist designs. Come to think of it Asymmetric defending of greens may be one of the most undervalued and underestimated aspects of succesful golf course design....

[David_Elvins]

I think Pasatiempo has a great set of GREENS, but not a particularly great set of greens complexes.

Tom,

Which do you think has the better green complexes - Pasatiempo or Healesville?  

[David_Elvins]

the best green complexes in golf ?

Which green complexes do you think are better ?

Pat,

If this is what we get when you make it out to Santa Cruz, I hope you never make it to Melbourne.  The Discussion Bard won't be able to keep up with the number of thread you will want to start.  

As for Pasa's greens, whilst the are some of my favorites, they are a little too extreme to be the best, IMO, both in their location and contour.
The flatter locations and more gently tilting contours and rolls at Royal Melbourne are superior IMO. 

[David_Madison]

Old Town belongs in the mix. I've always thought OTC's greens complexes were the best in NC, and beat Pinehurst #2's because of their incredible variety vs. #2's begin effectively the same concept over and over again.

[Chris DeToro]

Hard to say if they're the definitive best but they are fantastic.  Others in the mix--Crystal Downs and virtually any Donald Ross course namely Pinehurst and Wannamoisett

[Mark Pearce]

Doesn't TOC have a horse in this race?  I'd also suggest that Muirfield has a great set of green complexes.

[John Cowden]

Pasa's greens surrounds could be greatly enhanced with less watering and firmer, faster conditions to enhance the ground game.  It's a bit ironic the club continues to keep the green surrounds lush and green in this new era of water scarcity when the architect [I'm sure (?)] would prefer to allow a more ground-friendly approach game.  Hell, the surrounds are lusher, and play slower, in the summer than they do in the winter. 

[Stephen Davis]

Pasa's greens surrounds could be greatly enhanced with less watering and firmer, faster conditions to enhance the ground game.  It's a bit ironic the club continues to keep the green surrounds lush and green in this new era of water scarcity when the architect [I'm sure (?)] would prefer to allow a more ground-friendly approach game.  Hell, the surrounds are lusher, and play slower, in the summer than they do in the winter. 

This was not the case when I was out there a few weeks ago. By necessity the entire course is playing quite nicely IMO.

[David_Tepper]

The green complexes at Royal Dornoch are very good.

[John Cowden]

Thanks, Stephen.  Good to learn that as my observation was a couple months ago.  Did the course offer you a credit while apologizing for the brown and dry fairways?   I bet many on here would pay a bonus for those conditions.

[John McCarthy]

Have there been any significant changes to the greens since the course was completed?   Has the increased speed of the greens and surrounds effected changed the way they are played?

[Mark Chaplin]

Imagine if Pat took up links golf, maybe he doesn't have a passport.

[Sean Leary]

Prairie Dunes are the best I have seen, per Tom's definition.

[Keith Durrant]

Liphook's greens are almost all open at the front,inviting the running approach, but include tiers and slopes, drop-offs at the sides and backs.

As an example, Simpson's favourite 5th green complex includes hidden bunkers protecting the left side and with a challenging diagonal tier and the ground falling to the right, many imprecise shots will be swept away from the green:

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pasa's greens surrounds could be greatly enhanced with less watering and firmer, faster conditions to enhance the ground game.  It's a bit ironic the club continues to keep the green surrounds lush and green in this new era of water scarcity when the architect [I'm sure (?)] would prefer to allow a more ground-friendly approach game.  Hell, the surrounds are lusher, and play slower, in the summer than they do in the winter. 

We played 21 holes in 2:55

Two elderly women let us through on # 5

The lush conditions around tees and greens may be a reaction to the water restrictions to the rest of the course.

The greens were great

[Bill_McBride]

Liphook's greens are almost all open at the front,inviting the running approach, but include tiers and slopes, drop-offs at the sides and backs.

As an example, Simpson's favourite 5th green complex includes hidden bunkers protecting the left side and with a challenging diagonal tier and the ground falling to the right, many imprecise shots will be swept away from the green:

Thanks for bringing up Liphook.  I absolutely adored that course.  Except for the world's most dangerous road crossing on a golf course. 

[Sean_A]

On a really good, sandy property, do people think most greenside bunker shots are among the least engaging recoveries available?  Most people are just trying to get out of sand so cool ground movement is for the most part a waste.  Its a bit of a cliche, but it often makes sense that flat ground play is often dictated by bunkers.  It should also make sense that cool ground movement be allowed to dictate play.  

Ciao

[Keith Durrant]

Sean, good point re. bunkering not being necessary for good green complexes. Many at Liphook only rely on contour to deflect the borderline approach shot. Firm and fast conditions support such design. Huntercombe also has many contoured green complexes without bunkers.

[Ally Mcintosh]

On a really good, sandy property, do people think most greenside bunker shots are among the least engaging recoveries available?  Most people are just trying to get out of sand so cool ground movement is for the most part a waste.  Its a bit of a cliche, but it often makes sense that flat ground play is often dictated by bunkers.  It should also make sense that cool ground movement be allowed to dictate play.  

Ciao

Completely agree.

Flatter courses do need more bunkering usually. We can debate the relative merits of the number and placement but a large part of the reason that many of The Open rota courses have a considerable number of bunkers is that they are relatively flat (money and difficulty being the other reasons).

Courses with lots of ground movement can get by with a lot less bunkers - there are umpteen examples of this.

And yes - the very best green complexes more often than not have a scarcity of green side bunkers, relying on one or two and some interesting ground movement on the surrounds.

[Jason Topp]

Can a set of green complexes be considered among the best when they are on a significant hillside like those at Pasatiempo?

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I use "greens complex" to talk about the green and the various short grass areas and hazards around it.

I think Pasatiempo has a great set of GREENS, but not a particularly great set of greens complexes.  Most of the greens are just surrounded by a lot of bunkers, where you are not thinking about hedging to one side or the other, because both sides are tightly guarded.

Tom,

I have to take issue with you on that point.

While it's true that many of the greens are surrounded/flanked by bunkers, the greens are so big that the golfer is offered a significantly sized "bail out" area within the green.  In some cases, more than 30 yards of "bail out"

The golfer is given a choice.  He doesn't have to directly attack the hole locations.
He can challenge the hole location or be conservative and hit to the center of the green.
Leaving him a significantly longer putt.
# 16 and # 17 would be good examples.
On # 16 the hole was cut back right, behind the deep right side bunker.
The golfer could challenge that location or play it safer and hit to the vast area to the left of the hole.
Or, to the next lower level, leaving him a challenging putt.

Same for # 17.
The golfer is not forced to challenge a back hole location.
Instead he can play short and take his chances putting or recovering.

In addition, there's a brilliant use of the terrain to protect hole locations.
# 8 being a perfect example where MacKenzie used the left side slope to guard the left side of the green.

On other greens he employed mounding to protect hole locations and in a good number of situations, he combined the use of bunkers, mounds and the terrain to guard and challenge hole locations.

My stock answer for "best greens complexes" is Pinehurst No. 2, even though a case can be made that they are repetitive. 

I've always been a fan of PH# 2, but, there sure was a lot of criticism about those greens during and after the Open

Royal Melbourne is another great answer.  Crystal Downs is another.

So MacKenzie bats 3 for 4 in your book.
That's pretty impressive.

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