Scotland independence and golf

[Jon Wiggett]

The last thing we in the North East want is an English parliament, which would be even more London-centric than Westminster.  An upside of the No vote is that the Tories can't, as I'm sure they'd love to, ignore the North East.

An English parliament should be somewhere such as Stoke or Sheffield so as to be more central and reduce the importance of Westminster. Of course had the North East had the courage to vote for devolution when offered it the whole situation of the last 2 years might have been different.

Wayne,

the yes/no vote was nothing to do with being a patriotic Scot or as Adam would suggest being more or less Anglo but rather as he also mentioned a question of economics and whether you thought Mr Salmond was telling the entire story.

Jon

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

What's the rationale for Edinburgh voting No so strongly and Glasgow voting yes?  I would have thought that Edinburgh would have a lot to gain as it would be the capital of a sovereign nation and would gain lots of government jobs and prestige. Whereas from Glasgow's perspective they will be ruled by toffs from Edinburgh rather than toffs from London - from my visits to Scotland it seems like Edinburghers look down on Glaswegians and there is no love lost between the two cities.

Or is it that Glaswegians identify themselves much more as Scots and Edinburgh is more commercially focussed and risk averse?

Wayne,

The Irish emigrated in their thousands to Glasgow between 1840s-1970s, so that's probably one reason for the Yes vote. If the English were for a Yes vote, the Irish would have voted No   

[Thomas Dai]

And now Alex Salmond has quit as Scotland's First Minister and SNP Leader.

Some key questions (sic) arise such as will he still attend the Ryder Cup? When will his book hit the shelves and/or when will his speaking tour of the US etc begin?

Once upon a time it would have been "Arise Sir Alex" followed by an air ticket to become something like High Commissioner or Ambassador to a Commonwealth country. Theses days maybe that home for ex-politicians the EEC will come a calling.

Atb

[Colin Macqueen]

Adam,
Just look to the Dundee results for confirmation of your thesis.

Scots wha ha'e!

Colin

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

he will not step down until a new party leader is chosen at the party conference in November so I expect he will be very visible at the Ryder Cup. Although I did not agree with some of what he was peddling and I did not like the manner in which he lead the yes campaign he was one of the few characters in modern politics. He has certainly done a lot for Scotland and will go down as a great Scot.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Of course had the North East had the courage to vote for devolution when offered it the whole situation of the last 2 years might have been different.

Indeed it would.  We'd have  one extra layer of useless, cynical politicians screwing things up.  The North East's rejection of a regional parliament was a proud moment for democracy when the people told the idiots that would have formed that regional assembly that we weren't going to pay for them to be crap career poloticians.

[David_Tepper]

"he was one of the few characters in modern politics."

Jon -

It will be interesting to see how the SNP fares post-Salmond. It is hard to imagine his successor will have a similar impact on the party and the country. The fortunes & influence of the SNP may have just peaked.

DT

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Mark,

At least we can continue to drive back and forth between Northumbria and the Lothians unencumbered by a layer of border police.

Unfortunately the politicians and their councils tend to multiply despite all efforts. Congrat's on keeping them at bay!

Malcolm

[Rich Goodale]

David

Nicola Sturgeon will be the next First Minister of the the Scottish Parliament before the end of this year, and the SNP will continue to be the dominant force, at least until the next elections, which will take place May 2016.  Sturgeon wiped the floor with her opponents in the third debate and is a force not to be disregarded by the traditional parties.

As for Salmond, he won't be going away, just lurking on the back benches of the Scottish Parliament and still the go-to guy when it comes to the media (even more effective, now that he is an eminence grise).  Given the fact that the Westminster establishment shot themselves in the foot in order to ensure the No victory, by panicking and offering DevoMax in the last days of the campaign, thus opening the Pandora's Box of the "West Lothian Question" (try Wikipedia) for all of the UK, you are going to see a an amazing unravelling of the "United" Kingdom over the next year or so.  Think of the iconic (for the UK)  WWII movie "Dambusters" when the first bomb hits the target but doesn't seem to have had any effect, but as it happens, the dam has already been fatally damaged below the water line and the inexorable forces of nature (in this case the water held in by the dam) eventually but inevitably leads to a triumphant breach.  That is what happened yesterday.  It is only a matter of time that the UK becomes a federal state rather than the grotesquely centralised one that it is today.

You heard it first here!

Rich

[Chris Kane]

Rich, are you envisioning four nations which are for most purposes independent, but share defence and a foreign service? Is there anything else (besides currency and therefore monetary policy) that would be centralised?

FWIW I think you are probably right.

[Sean_A]

I agree with Rihc...in part.  The UK as we know it is on its last legs.  Although, I am not sure N Ireland or Wales will want to be independent except in name perhaps.  It will be quite messy, but if England insists on more independence (sounds wild) then necessarily Wales and N Ireland must be partially severed from the mothering cord.  I am not at all convinced Wales would go for this and if NI is to be partially severed it will raise the question of Irish unification...very, very messy stuff.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Wow

Let's take a hard look at ourselves.  We've known for years thsi was coming and we've criticised the level of debate, but who thought this through and predicted this situation?   Any significant Yes vote was going to put pressure on things to change.  It's not just the politicians who've sleepwalked here.

The move to a written constitution with more of a federal basis is a welcome ideal, but rushing down this path is not likely to fix things.  The politicians are back taking sides and it does seem that Cameron had more idea of what this means than Miliband did, so the prospects of agreement there are limited.  How ironic that the US Constitution was largely written by Scotsmen.

There's one other thing that I've not seen mentioned. At the moment GB&I are a lone voice in Europe providing a wellcome realiity check on some of the slide to an expansion of powers.   We already exist in a kind of Federation of Europe. However the dissenting voices come mainly from England and not the other parts of the Union. At the moment the threat that GB&I might pull out means Britain punches above their wieght in this debate.   Could England alone threaten to pull out?  Has the vote delivered us into the hands of the Eurocrats?  If so what looks like a democratic vote could lead to less liberty and individual control for all.


May you live in interesting times.

[Thomas Dai]

England v Scotland

5:00pm Saturday 14 March 2015

Alas, it's at Twickers/'HQ' rather than at Murrayfield

atb

[David_Tepper]

Rich -

I am well aware of Ms.Sturgeon's role. There are many capable Deputies, VP's', COO's, etc. who never quite make the transition successfully to the first chair. It remains to be seen if she has the flair and charisma Mr. Salmond has for convincing folks to ignore the facts and realities of the situation and just believe.

It will be interesting to see how Mr. Salmond's role evolves over time. Generally speaking, once you give up power in politics, you are done. In a world of ambitious people, how many "elder statesman" have any real influence?

As for "devo-max," once again be careful what you wish for. Once the SNP has the power to manage Scotland as they see fit (and can no longer demonize the Westminster establishment), they may wish things had turned out differently. Faced with an aging population, hard-core urban (and rural) poverty, a depleted manufacturing base, declining North Sea Oil revenue, etc., the SNP will actually have to deliver on the promises of their rhetoric. I wish them good luck on that.

DT      

[Jon Wiggett]

There is a large bit of irony in all this.

The conservatives know that an independent England will be dominated by them hence the enthusiasm of David Cameron to link 'English votes for English matters' Labour know it would be the death knell for them probably ending an era where they could be considered as a substantive political party hence Ed Milliband's trying to kick this into the rough even if it means reneging on 'The Vow'. So for us in Scotland, the best way to ensure rapid progress on powers to Scotland is to vote in as many Tory MPs at Westminster as possible

Jon

[David_Tepper]

This is the best analysis of the current (& future) situation that I have seen so far:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/70acc06a-3fdd-11e4-936b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DtTor3MA

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

You analysis is mostly right but your conclusion entirely wrong!  More Scottish Tory MPs would mean Cameron actually cared about Scottish votes.  He doesn't at the moment because he can't imagine winning seats North of the Border.  The disturbing thing for English voters in any Devon max is the increasing influence in England that UKIP will have.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jon,

You analysis is mostly right but your conclusion entirely wrong!  More Scottish Tory MPs would mean Cameron actually cared about Scottish votes.  He doesn't at the moment because he can't imagine winning seats North of the Border.  The disturbing thing for English voters in any Devon max is the increasing influence in England that UKIP will have.

Devon max? Where will this end?

[Paul Gray]

There's a wonderful amount of partisan driven contradiction throughout all of this. We now have a Tory government promoting the same federal system which causes them to vomit when mentioned in relation to Europe. Merely utter 'United States of Europe' and that lot break out in cold sweats, simultaneously praising the democracy offered by the same set up in the USA. Of course, my lot, the Liberal Party, were proposing all of this a century ago, but sense rarely prevails at the first time of asking.

[Jon Wiggett]

Paul,

I suspect if the Tories thought they would be the dominant force in a 'United States of Europe' they would be all for it and hence why they want to move towards an English parliament. If Labour carry on the way they have in the last 24 hours I suspect they will get a real kicking in England at the next election. Ed Miliband seems hell bent on making them unelectable. For the Liberals it reneging on tuition fees and getting into government with the Tories that has hurt them

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Jon,

You analysis is mostly right but your conclusion entirely wrong!  More Scottish Tory MPs would mean Cameron actually cared about Scottish votes.  He doesn't at the moment because he can't imagine winning seats North of the Border.  The disturbing thing for English voters in any Devon max is the increasing influence in England that UKIP will have.

Devon max? Where will this end?

Possibly Cornwall Max?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Jon,

You analysis is mostly right but your conclusion entirely wrong!  More Scottish Tory MPs would mean Cameron actually cared about Scottish votes.  He doesn't at the moment because he can't imagine winning seats North of the Border.  The disturbing thing for English voters in any Devon max is the increasing influence in England that UKIP will have.

Devon max? Where will this end?

Some times you have to love the autocorrect and how it deals with new words.

But to get back to the main issue - what is wrong with a federalist state where many of the powers are devolved to the state/province?  Those of us in Canada, the US, Australia, etc have always had such a system and it has worked well.  The system here in Canada was designed by our colonial masters in the UK through the British North America act of 1867.  Why not apply a similar constitutional act in the UK itself? 

I guess the one major difference is that England is substantially bigger than any state or province as it has 84% of the population of the UK, but that can likely be dealt with or, as has been suggested, you break England up into a few pieces.

Possibly Cornwall Max?

[Tony_Muldoon]

But to get back to the main issue - what is wrong with a federalist state where many of the powers are devolved to the state/province?  Those of us in Canada, the US, Australia, etc have always had such a system and it has worked well.  The system here in Canada was designed by our colonial masters in the UK through the British North America act of 1867.  Why not apply a similar constitutional act in the UK itself? 

I guess the one major difference is that England is substantially bigger than any state or province as it has 84% of the population of the UK, but that can likely be dealt with or, as has been suggested, you break England up into a few pieces.

Wayne you've hit the nail on the head.  As an Irishman living in England I do sense that there is an inteterst in Engand getting more recogniton and power, but I don't see a way of dividing it into smaller pieces.  Meanwhile Cameron has promissed a referendum on European membership if re elected.   Will be interesting....

[Jon Wiggett]

But to get back to the main issue - what is wrong with a federalist state where many of the powers are devolved to the state/province?  Those of us in Canada, the US, Australia, etc have always had such a system and it has worked well.  The system here in Canada was designed by our colonial masters in the UK through the British North America act of 1867.  Why not apply a similar constitutional act in the UK itself? 

I guess the one major difference is that England is substantially bigger than any state or province as it has 84% of the population of the UK, but that can likely be dealt with or, as has been suggested, you break England up into a few pieces.

Wayne you've hit the nail on the head.  As an Irishman living in England I do sense that there is an inteterst in Engand getting more recogniton and power, but I don't see a way of dividing it into smaller pieces.  Meanwhile Cameron has promissed a referendum on European membership if re elected.   Will be interesting....

Tony,

if Westminster is so busy handling the Scotland and England issue then I suspect the government will have to kick the EU can further down the road. Although this might be hard to imagine now once Joe (English) public gets stoked up about the England issue the EU will be most definitely a secondary issue. If Labour do not quickly change their tune and look as though they are interested in the best thing for the country rather than what is best for the Labour party it could end up being a landslide for the Tories.

Maybe Cameron has just played a master stroke. Tory majority, no real opposition and no EU headache.

Jon

 

[Thomas Dai]

'Crystal ball' time - what would be the result if David Cameron called a snap General Election right now?

What's the line about "The brave shall inherit the earth" - courageous move or folly?


atb