North Berwick 15th shortened to 190 yards

[Tony Dear]

I have read the Redan at North Berwick started life at 266 yards. It's now 190, of course, so I was wondering if anyone knew when it was shortened and who shortened it? Also, I know this has been discussed on here before, but was there any resolution in the Ben Sayers/West Links/1932 debate? The course's web site says the last major alterations were carried out in 1932 'under the supervision of Ben Sayers'. But he had been dead for eight years. Perhaps it was Ben Sayers Jr?

[Bryan Izatt]

Tony,

Here's a recent thread on the subject.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59480.0.html

[Tony Dear]

Thank you Bryan, very much obliged. That's fascinating reading.

[Tony Dear]

Here's an interesting addition though. I read this morning an article by Douglas Seaton which more or less confirmed the hole did once play as a two-shotter. Seaton quotes Horace Hutchinson, the 1886/1887 Amateur Champion who said it required a “cleek or iron shot over a wall, so far and no further, and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called the ‘Redan'.”

[Rich Goodale]

Tony

The 1932 changes were a result of the acquisition of the land on which the current 9th and 10th reside.  They were designed by CK Hutchinson.

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

wrong thread 

[Tony Dear]

Thanks Rich. A couple of thoughts are floating around in my head. First, if the hole's measurement (266 yards) was based on the distance between the two 'cups' at the 14th and 15th, would the same not have been true for every other hole? Second, Horace Hutchinson was quoted as saying "a cleek or iron shot was used to pitch just over a wall, so far and no further, and then a full drive or brassy shot to carry over a bunker escarpment not inaptly called the 'Redan'." One wonders why he would go 'no further' than the wall from the 'tee', and why he didn't hit the 'full drive or brassy' for his first shot. Also, even if he was close to the wall after his first shot, wouldn't he have had only about 145-150 yards to carry the 'bunker escarpment'? I know his clubs and balls weren't exactly hi-tech, but would he have needed a 'full drive' to clear it?

[Niall C]

Tony

Back in the 1890's it was reported that JH Taylor averaged 180 yards with his drive which was considered a bit longer than the average first class player. Weaker players would therefore be doing well to get the ball 150 yards. Bear in mind also that back then have the skill was being able to loft the ball which is something you would require playing the Redan. Altogether a pretty strong challenge.

Niall

[DMoriarty]

Tony,  I've read that quote before, but I cannot place it offhand.  I was thinking it was from much earlier than 1895, more like late 1870s or early 1880's but I don't have time to track it down now.   I don't think the hole was playing like that in 1895, and i don't think the hole was lengthened to 266 yards in 1895.