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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #275 on: August 29, 2014, 11:38:17 AM »
But that's a very different thing than "getting it," which I would argue is not as complicated as we sometimes make it out to be.

Interesting take. I'd argue the opposite: truly "getting it" is much more complicated than most think, especially those who think they "get it" with a single play.

But I'm sure you're not surprised by my view, we've disagreed on this for quite awhile.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #276 on: August 29, 2014, 11:41:32 AM »
I disagree with Pietro.  There is a ton of subtle stuff that needs experience to "see".  Often times the subtle stuff has to do with ground movement.  People focus on bunkering, but nearly always bunkering is a road map of how to play a hole.  Lets look at THE CLASSIC example - Woking #4.  Everybody ooohs and aaaaahs over the centreline bunkers.  The choice is quite obvious; danger right, safety left.  What people tend to need at least (assuming they have pulled off two shots to discover the well of interest and are observant) two plays to discover is how the green works in concert with the Principal's Nose.  Play safe and it isn't just a covering front left bunker which causes consternation, but the green also runs away from this angle or approach.  This isn't readily apparent until one hits what he thinks is a good approach only to watch it roll toward the tracks and get bunkered on the back end of the green.  Bottom line, it will take exceptional play to earn a par from the left, but that isn't even close to readily apparent when standing on the tee.  For most people, the way to have a best chance at making par from the left is to lay up shy of the green to the right.  This sort of play takes a nerve of its own because most of us think we can pull off the shot from the left and most of those people are either delusional or have a memory of doing so in wet conditions.  

You tell me which is the best play off the 4th tee at Woking.  I don't know.  Guys can look awfully smart or stupid with any choice.

Forget road map bunkering.  There is a lot of subtlety with ground movement in many of the courses I play.  So much so that often times modern bunkering makes no sense what so ever, yet golfers will play to the bunker scheme and ignore the implications of ground movement. Kington is one of the best examples I know for some great subtlety with ground movement.  

Ciao

Phenomenal post. Wish more people took the time to truly understand and appreciate it.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #277 on: August 29, 2014, 11:42:29 AM »
How can you cherish something everyone else loves, it seems so polycentric.  There are few things better in life than seeing the light while a bunch of knumbnuts stumble around in the dark. The current photo thread of a Nicklaus course on the ocean goes a long way towards my point that a view of the Sand Hills is more interesting.  Not everyone will ever understand or accept that.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #278 on: August 29, 2014, 11:54:37 AM »
How can you cherish something everyone else loves, it seems so polycentric.

Guess that's why you butted heads with Huck, whom everyone else loved...

Some things are just universally loved.

Or almost universally, apparently.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dwight Phelps

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #279 on: August 29, 2014, 12:23:22 PM »
Is it possible that ones focus goes from big to small with each successive play of a course?  Perhaps that's why eye candy has such a big impact on the wham-bam-thank-you-mam crowd while the best courses continue to reveal their subtler charms over time?  (Not making a statement one way or the other about DRR).

10 at Riviera.  I don't know, it doesn't look all that amazing from the tee.  But my 3 plays on it, have me wanting to do nothing but play it again and again and again.  And try different things, see it in different weather and winds.  Amazing hole.


Mac,

I would argue that Riviera #10 plays into Jud's premise in a slightly different way, for me. I really like the look of the hole, but after even just one play, it became apparent to me that the most striking part of visual off the tee is the large fairway bunker that doesn't really come into play. So I would say that the large bunker is the macro feature that immediately draws the eye, but the micro challenges beyond that bunker offer far more interest once playing (as opposed to merely viewing from the tee).
"We forget that the playing of golf should be a delightful expression of freedom" - Max Behr

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #280 on: August 29, 2014, 12:24:32 PM »
But that's a very different thing than "getting it," which I would argue is not as complicated as we sometimes make it out to be.

Interesting take. I'd argue the opposite: truly "getting it" is much more complicated than most think, especially those who think they "get it" with a single play.

But I'm sure you're not surprised by my view, we've disagreed on this for quite awhile.


Could it be you are both correct?  People process information differently, some may "get it" after one play, others may need additional visits.  

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #281 on: August 29, 2014, 01:02:53 PM »
So a friend of mine just played Dismal Doak and did not like it because the river was not used much at all. He loves Sand Hills and I said C&C never used the river there and you think it is among the top 10 in the world. I have not been to Dismal Doak (played Nicklaus though) and played Sand Hills numerous times. Does his reasoning make sense?
Mr Hurricane

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #282 on: August 29, 2014, 01:10:45 PM »
Jim,
Your friend is clearly entitled to like or dislike what he wants, but his specific criticism seems odd. I have only spent one weekend there, so I am not the expert, but I am not sure how the river would have been utilized more? Also, out there, it seems odd to have water coming into play.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #283 on: August 29, 2014, 01:13:16 PM »
So a friend of mine just played Dismal Doak and did not like it because the river was not used much at all. He loves Sand Hills and I said C&C never used the river there and you think it is among the top 10 in the world. I have not been to Dismal Doak (played Nicklaus though) and played Sand Hills numerous times. Does his reasoning make sense?

It would be perfectly normal for anyone to stand on the back of 12 green and think the same thing.  Maybe the day Doak got his four wheeler stuck down by the river was the day he decided to cross the road.  He could have routed the course to cross the river and go up the buffalo run then back down the horse shoe.  Your friend may be on to something.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #284 on: August 29, 2014, 01:21:28 PM »
He could have routed the course to cross the river and go up the buffalo run then back down the horse shoe.  Your friend may be on to something.


 ;D ;D ;D

Now that would be EPIC golf!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #285 on: August 29, 2014, 01:22:18 PM »
He could have routed the course to cross the river and go up the buffalo run then back down the horse shoe.  Your friend may be on to something.


 ;D ;D ;D

Now that would be EPIC golf!!!

Open skull.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #286 on: August 29, 2014, 01:24:23 PM »
Jim,
Your friend is clearly entitled to like or dislike what he wants, but his specific criticism seems odd. I have only spent one weekend there, so I am not the expert, but I am not sure how the river would have been utilized more? Also, out there, it seems odd to have water coming into play.

Agreed on all accounts, Keith.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #287 on: August 29, 2014, 01:24:46 PM »
So a friend of mine just played Dismal Doak and did not like it because the river was not used much at all. He loves Sand Hills and I said C&C never used the river there and you think it is among the top 10 in the world. I have not been to Dismal Doak (played Nicklaus though) and played Sand Hills numerous times. Does his reasoning make sense?

I don't think it makes much sense.

The river is pretty narrow, but there's thick vegetation on both sides of the river, which would make the carry over the river pretty long.  Also, the hills rise abruptly on the other side of the river.

Always a good assumption to assume Tom Doak comes up with a routing taht best utilizes the land.

 

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #288 on: August 29, 2014, 01:28:42 PM »
John Kirk -

I would imagine that Doak used the best land for the best course and certainly would not argue with his creation. Totally agree with your thought.
Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #289 on: August 29, 2014, 01:42:50 PM »
So a friend of mine just played Dismal Doak and did not like it because the river was not used much at all. He loves Sand Hills and I said C&C never used the river there and you think it is among the top 10 in the world. I have not been to Dismal Doak (played Nicklaus though) and played Sand Hills numerous times. Does his reasoning make sense?

It would be perfectly normal for anyone to stand on the back of 12 green and think the same thing.  Maybe the day Doak got his four wheeler stuck down by the river was the day he decided to cross the road.  He could have routed the course to cross the river and go up the buffalo run then back down the horse shoe.  Your friend may be on to something.

John:

As you may have known, my preliminary study for the course [drawn before I'd been on site] used the river on more holes and even went across and back a couple of times.  Unfortunately, when we got there we discovered that the land close to the river is full of springs [which is why it looks green in those photos].  So, it is mostly unstable ... in fact, we almost lost Don Mahaffey in front of the 16th green early in construction, when his backhoe sunk into a springy area.

We could have gone down lower on #13 instead of up high ... I just liked up high better ... but apart from that, all the land right along the Dismal was a problem.  I used the only stable bits I could find -- 16 tee and green, 17 tee, and 18 green.  It has been enough exposure to the river for everybody but Jim's friend so far.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #290 on: August 29, 2014, 01:50:03 PM »
Tom,

Thanks, I'm just trying to embrace opposing opinions of Dismal with an open mind.  Was not aware of the preliminary plan, glad it didn't work out.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #291 on: August 29, 2014, 01:53:07 PM »
Could it be you are both correct?  People process information differently, some may "get it" after one play, others may need additional visits.  

Mark, if by some you mean those who dedicate their lives to studying, building, and maintaining golf courses - ie Tom D, Don Mahaffey and a bunch of others on here - then you are indeed correct.

If your some includes me or Andy, well, no, you're wrong.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #292 on: August 29, 2014, 02:05:16 PM »
Not sure what else I can add but I'll give my thoughts as someone who played both Dismal courses a few times at this year's 5th Major.

I completely agree with the premise that the Nicklaus course looks traditionally more difficult but plays more forgiving than the Doak course, which can be sneaky tough. There were spots on the Doak course where the play off the tee seemed easy and obvious, but actually called for quite a different shot. Very subtle, very advanced visual complications that were fun to unlock after multiple plays. A great member's course that requires and rewards smart decision making.

I actually thought the biggest difference between the two courses was the first cut of rough on the White. On the Red, there was no rough to stop your ball from tumbling into the super long stuff or make your pitch any easier if you missed a green. It wasn't penal, but again, it forced you to pay attention and use your brain.

I very much enjoyed playing both, and think it's great that the members have two different styles to choose from.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #293 on: August 29, 2014, 02:43:22 PM »
I completely agree with the premise that the Nicklaus course looks traditionally more difficult but plays more forgiving than the Doak course, which can be sneaky tough. There were spots on the Doak course where the play off the tee seemed easy and obvious, but actually called for quite a different shot. Very subtle, very advanced visual complications that were fun to unlock after multiple plays.

Perhaps for you, Mark, but Andy could see all and know all after only one play. Perhaps you missed the post where he said so.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Andy Troeger

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #294 on: August 29, 2014, 05:46:01 PM »
I completely agree with the premise that the Nicklaus course looks traditionally more difficult but plays more forgiving than the Doak course, which can be sneaky tough. There were spots on the Doak course where the play off the tee seemed easy and obvious, but actually called for quite a different shot. Very subtle, very advanced visual complications that were fun to unlock after multiple plays.

Perhaps for you, Mark, but Andy could see all and know all after only one play. Perhaps you missed the post where he said so.

George,
I'm pretty sure you already know that this isn't what I meant, so I'm not going to elaborate. We can agree to disagree on what "getting it" means.

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #295 on: August 29, 2014, 06:43:17 PM »
Interesting that Jim Franklin's friend's thought seems to mirror Tom Dak's original thought. Now he didn't know the impossibilities of the idea, but so be it. That is example number 1000000 of why I have no clue what goes into routing a corse,

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #296 on: August 31, 2014, 04:53:47 PM »
Interesting read, and I'm very glad that the GW review of Dismal River-Red spawned a 12-page, 300-post tread that seems to have kept pretty much to topic. I might have read it sooner and been tempted to comment earlier but for the fact that I was away on a much-needed break - though looking at golf courses, this time in Northern Scotland.

Having been doing this for a very long time, including what I think is 125 or so Raters Notebooks since the first one in late-2001, I am always worried about repeating myself or contradicting myself. For example, on the matter of a mile+ hike to the first tee (and back from the 18th green), I think my view is that on some courses it's worth it and other times an indulgent excess. It all depends upon what sits at the end of the road. There's no more exciting ride in golf than an early morning trip from the cabins at Sand Hills on the Dismal River (yes, the do use the river there!) a mile+ to the first time. Yet there's another another course, name escapes me, in northern Michigan, part of Boyne something, where roughly the same distance trip ends up being a waste of space and time.

I was very careful in that Dismal River-Red review not to compare it to Sand Hills. If someone is ridiculous enough to equate a single vote with an aggregate of multiple raters, then that's their problem and one of basic logic, not mine. As editor of the whole list and someone who monitors it I am not there in those reviews to report what the raters think -- that's the purpose of the annually published lists. In the case of Dismal River-Red the No. 39 ranking on the Modern list was the product of 17 votes. Contrary to what one or two posters seemed to suggest, we don't have a time line or waiting period for inclusion, just 15 votes. Usually those early votes are eagerly positive and it takes a while for a course to find its natural level once it gets in the neighborhood of 30 or more votes. Often that's a downward slide. But in other cases, as more raters see a place it climbs slowly or steadily. That was the case with Calusa Pines. If my vote was higher than what the raters cumulatively gave it that's because I thought more highly of it. But I disagree with them on some courses and agree with others. Nobody gets disciplined for disagreeing -- though we do monitor raters who indiscriminately hand out boatloads of 8s and 9s, just as i will ask raters to reconsider if all they give out is 3s, 4s and 5s. As for self-censorship or them following my own votes, I can't help if that happens. All I can do is adhere to the criteria and ask people to register their own judgments that help them make sense of what they are seeing. 

I think the review is pretty well self contained. Okay, I erred on the distance of the entrance road -- it was 17 miles, not 27. But it still seemed ten miles too long.

The discussion of blind and double-blind shots was fascinating. For me, the problem of such routing schemes that allow for is not simply that you can't see where to aim or where the landforms are going; I also think an important issue is that once you get to multiple blind landing areas you start losing the sense of thrill involved in watching the ball roll out. And on the firm open fairways of prairie or links golf that's such a big part of the game and it can start to get lost.

I really welcomed Richard Choi's brief but revealing observation about not enjoying most caddies. As a former looper at multiple levels I find most caddies get in the way and tell me little more of the shot alignment than I can usually figure out by myself -- or that I'd like to try figuring out for myself. Sure, they can be very helpful reading greens. But when it comes to reading shots and holes and land I want to have that for myself and enjoy a golf course where there is something interesting to interpret or figure out -- what I call a literate golf course. And what most intrigued me about Dismal River-Red was not so much the definition of distinct options for getting from green-to-tee via path "A" or "B" but that each shot, each line, had consequences that you had to deal with and figure out.

I think Doak and his design/build team and Don Mahaffey and Chris Johnston have done a great job of making Dismal River a place that's worth visiting an staying out. What used to be a lone course to play 9with the White) is now a destination in its own right that deserves to be taken seriously. What used to be a curious stopover on the Nebraska Trail is now a place on the golf map with its own unique virtues and sense of place. Thus the "9."

If people want to turn that into the basis for a Kabbalistic torture signaling the course as better than or next to or a successor to some other, you are free to, but it's not what such a review is all about.

As for the "Dr." thing, I never use it or claim it but factually it's not improper, though it derives from a Ph.D. in a field (political science) whose utility in golf course architecture is not central, though it has proven helpful when it comes to land use issues, politics, regulation and the economy. I'd had worse nicknames.   

 


Brent Hutto

Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #297 on: August 31, 2014, 05:04:26 PM »
It never occurred to me that aggregate ratings and your individual rating were on different scales, Brad. If you'll indulge me in a ridiculous question, is a course you rate at 9.0 meant to be a *better* course or *worse* course than one with an aggregate rating of 9.0?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #298 on: August 31, 2014, 05:41:58 PM »
Brent, all are on the same relative scale. But you don't know what my 9s and 8s and 10s are, so you can't say what I rate as better or worse than Sand Hills or Dismal River-Red or Dallas National. And there is no way to translate my own vote into an aggregate vote other than throwing it into a Mix Master with everyone else's vote.

Brad
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 05:44:05 PM by Brad Klein »

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dr. Klein rates Dismal River Red a 9.0
« Reply #299 on: August 31, 2014, 05:48:16 PM »
Another excellent post by Brad, reminding me why I wish he posted more. 

So Brad, can you clear it up?  Where do you rank DRR among modern courses?  Top 10?  Top 5?  Worse?