[Sven Nilsen]

How many rounds does Sand Hills see in a year?

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,

So it's the business side of golf that can bother you, which can manifest itself in conditioning.  

Thanks

Gray - I'm the quintessential "retail golfer" upon which Mike Keiser based his business model. I LOVE links (and links style) golf and will travel to the far nooks and crannies of this planet to seek out excellent golf experiences. It seems to me that if one's business model is based on quality then you need to deliver quality... and should be open to criticism if the original standard is allowed to slip. I believe things are slipping a bit at Bandon. Is it due to time taking its toll because of inadequate countermeasures? It is due to a management comfort factor with current operations? Is it due to a push for bottom line results? One could argue, I guess, if the numbers keep going up what's the problem?

I was also disappointed to learn that Bandon is going to build new "luxury" accommodations for high-end guests...  because they feel money is being left on the table by not having posh digs for the upper crust. Why am I disappointed? Because I don't usually think of "luxury" as part of the Bandon ethos. I guess the place is evolving into the Pebble Beach of the Northwest. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike, it is significant to mention that Sand Hills has now been grassed for nearly 20 years and in that time they have had periods of turf issues.  The sward has been overtaken by poa and then reclaimed with fescue and it has been a dance orchestrated by two highly competent and respected turf managers in the past.  Not to mention the wind erosion.  All sand hill courses undergo these turf challenges in their respective micro environments.  As for Bandon, it is a climate different than Deal and the Pac Norwest is notorious for ripe conditions of poa proliferation at a rapid and unmanageable rate. 

The time window to deal with turf species management and cultural practices is also vastly different, particularly considering the short golf operational season, timed with short window to halt golf inorder to deal with macro turf treatments and species management. 

I'm not a turf expert but I do know that it is not a proper comparison to say that one of these courses can manage better or more successfully in their cultural and turf species management and invasive suppression than another.  They all have the goal of business success or viability, obviously.  I think the very nature of economic self interest will cause their professional staff and decision makers to try various approaches, always experiment with new ideas, and seek the best and highest practices that support their business success.  That is why they are the professionals they are.  And, they do collaborate and share ideas in their turf professional circles, whether it is a circle formed in a tavern or a symposium organized by state and national turf professional orgs.  None of these big time golf resort complex venues employ chimps for turf managers, they'll keep working to give you the best experience possible within the environmental and climate challenges they must cope with. 

Dick - I'm probably too tough with some of my opinions, but I'm just a consumer and I want a good value for my money. I don't ask for Augusta-like conditions... prefer the opposite, really. But, if a place represents itself as one of the top courses or destinations in the world (and prices themselves accordingly) then they better deliver. There are a lot of "big time" venues that can't see past their front door and are living off their past glory days.

Smart people learn from their own mistakes... brilliant people learn from the mistakes of others. As I said before, some of these places shouldn't keep trying to reinvent the wheel. 

[Mike Hamilton]

Congrats to Tom, Chris, and everyone else for working to make Dismal a success.  After a trip to Bandon three weeks ago for the first time since 2011 KP, it reinforced my belief that DRR is indeed better than Pac Dunes, ocean or not, flies or not (which in my couple of trips were not a problem later in the season), 1 mile cart ride vs shuttle, and regardless of whether the greens are 'perfect' or not yet.

Also interesting that Brad seemed to indicate that 12 was his favorite par 4....that's a pretty tough choice but it would be in my top 3 or 4.

Someone needs to host mr Moriarty at Dismal.  He might still hold on to some of his criticisms but I am sure he'd have a great time.

[William_G]

Michael,

So it's the business side of golf that can bother you, which can manifest itself in conditioning.  

Thanks

Gray - I'm the quintessential "retail golfer" upon which Mike Keiser based his business model. I LOVE links (and links style) golf and will travel to the far nooks and crannies of this planet to seek out excellent golf experiences. It seems to me that if one's business model is based on quality then you need to deliver quality... and should be open to criticism if the original standard is allowed to slip. I believe things are slipping a bit at Bandon. Is it due to time taking its toll because of inadequate countermeasures? It is due to a management comfort factor with current operations? Is it due to a push for bottom line results? One could argue, I guess, if the numbers keep going up what's the problem?

I was also disappointed to learn that Bandon is going to build new "luxury" accommodations for high-end guests...  because they feel money is being left on the table by not having posh digs for the upper crust. Why am I disappointed? Because I don't usually think of "luxury" as part of the Bandon ethos. I guess the place is evolving into the Pebble Beach of the Northwest. 

LOL

I'm just not that business oriented when it comes to playing great golf.

Thank you to Keiser et al for handling that.

Always fun to start a rumor about the upper crust, luxury, posh, high-end, LOL

I doubt there is any plan for that, but I am not surprised by much.

Come out and see Sven and me this winter!

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael,

So it's the business side of golf that can bother you, which can manifest itself in conditioning.  

Thanks

Gray - I'm the quintessential "retail golfer" upon which Mike Keiser based his business model. I LOVE links (and links style) golf and will travel to the far nooks and crannies of this planet to seek out excellent golf experiences. It seems to me that if one's business model is based on quality then you need to deliver quality... and should be open to criticism if the original standard is allowed to slip. I believe things are slipping a bit at Bandon. Is it due to time taking its toll because of inadequate countermeasures? It is due to a management comfort factor with current operations? Is it due to a push for bottom line results? One could argue, I guess, if the numbers keep going up what's the problem?

I was also disappointed to learn that Bandon is going to build new "luxury" accommodations for high-end guests...  because they feel money is being left on the table by not having posh digs for the upper crust. Why am I disappointed? Because I don't usually think of "luxury" as part of the Bandon ethos. I guess the place is evolving into the Pebble Beach of the Northwest. 

LOL

I'm just not that business oriented when it comes to playing great golf.

Thank you to Keiser et al for handling that.

Always fun to start a rumor about the upper crust, luxury, posh, high-end, LOL

I doubt there is any plan for that, but I am not surprised by much.

Come out and see Sven and me this winter!

I'll try and make that happen. I've got a rain check for a home cooked meal at Sven's I need to cash before it expires!!!

[Brad Isaacs]

Sitting up at the clubhouse, outside, at the end of a day, priceless moment in golf!   CJ treated me very well, thanks, and thanks to the entire staff .  Timetable for course 3?

[DMoriarty]

Someone needs to host mr Moriarty at Dismal.  He might still hold on to some of his criticisms but I am sure he'd have a great time.

Mike Hamilton.  

I have no doubt that golfing Dismal Red would be a "great time." In the photos the course looks terrific and I have great respect for Tom Doak's work.  I have never played a course of his I didn't enjoy.  I've have no opinion on where it should place in any "ranking" (I generally don't go in for such things) but it doesn't surprise me one bit that DRR is somewhere within the top 50 modern courses in the country, which is where the 2014 Golfweek List places the course.  

As for my supposed "criticisms," in my opinion they have been blown out of proportion by overzealous Dismal supporters who treat anything less than obsequiousness as a reprehensible affront.  

In brief, I have long been interested in the evolution of golf course design generally, and the impact of carts on golf architecture specifically.  So naturally Tom Doak's so-called "Open Jaw," remote start routing at Dismal interests me, because it requires golfers shuttle about the property in golf carts, and also creates a predominately downhill routing.  I have asked a number of questions and raised a number of concerns about the "open-jaw" concept, and I have raised similar questions about DRR and other courses (Sand Hills for example) that require a long cart ride to the first tee.  While my questions and concerns have lead to near apoplexy among the Dismal boys, I am not the only one with such concerns.  In fact, Tom Doak himself had very similar concerns when he considered (then thought better of) a downhill, "open-jaw", remote start routing at Rock Creek.

Would my concerns keep me from enjoying a round at Dismal River or cause me to condemn the design?  Of course not.  As I said, I have similar concerns with the remote start at Sand Hills, but still enjoyed playing there and consider it the first and most important golf course of this generation of golf courses.  Surely I would enjoy a round a Dismal Red, but I cannot imagine that it would erase my questions or concerns, as they are much broader than any one course.

As for your suggestion that someone host me at Dismal I appreciate the thought, but I have no interest whatsoever in accepting an invitation to play there.  This has nothing to do with the course itself.

[William_G]

Michael,

So it's the business side of golf that can bother you, which can manifest itself in conditioning.  

Thanks

Gray - I'm the quintessential "retail golfer" upon which Mike Keiser based his business model. I LOVE links (and links style) golf and will travel to the far nooks and crannies of this planet to seek out excellent golf experiences. It seems to me that if one's business model is based on quality then you need to deliver quality... and should be open to criticism if the original standard is allowed to slip. I believe things are slipping a bit at Bandon. Is it due to time taking its toll because of inadequate countermeasures? It is due to a management comfort factor with current operations? Is it due to a push for bottom line results? One could argue, I guess, if the numbers keep going up what's the problem?

I was also disappointed to learn that Bandon is going to build new "luxury" accommodations for high-end guests...  because they feel money is being left on the table by not having posh digs for the upper crust. Why am I disappointed? Because I don't usually think of "luxury" as part of the Bandon ethos. I guess the place is evolving into the Pebble Beach of the Northwest. 

LOL

I'm just not that business oriented when it comes to playing great golf.

Thank you to Keiser et al for handling that.

Always fun to start a rumor about the upper crust, luxury, posh, high-end, LOL

I doubt there is any plan for that, but I am not surprised by much.

Come out and see Sven and me this winter!

I'll try and make that happen. I've got a rain check for a home cooked meal at Sven's I need to cash before it expires!!!

I'll take care of you if he enforces an expiration date, LOL

[Mark Bourgeois]

There's a brown Audi in my parking space. Get a tow truck over here and have it towed away immediately!

[William_G]

There's a brown Audi in my parking space. Get a tow truck over here and have it towed away immediately!

Lol

[Jerry Kluger]

This is quite an interesting discussion considering the lack of any serious mention of Ballyneal - no need for ocean views when you have brilliant routing and a fantastic variety of quality holes.  DRR needs to be compared to Ballyneal to determine where it ranks as a TD course.

BTW: I was out at Sand Hills about 5 years ago and there was Poa in a couple of greens.  Went back last year and it had spread through quite a few more. 

[John Kavanaugh]

The Sand Hills are more interesting than the Ocean. They just move slower.

[John Kavanaugh]

Some men look at the surface of an ocean and dream where he may go while other men walk the floors of oceans embracing where they have been.  Who do you want to be?

[Don Mahaffey]

The Sand Hills are more interesting than the Ocean. They just move slower.

You know there are shark teeth out there...

[John Kirk]

Also interesting that Brad seemed to indicate that 12 was his favorite par 4....that's a pretty tough choice but it would be in my top 3 or 4.

This made me happy, since during my one round at the Red course I felt the 12th hole was unusually interesting, despite being considered a "connector" hole.

Shark teeth?  Really?  I was under the impression that the Sand Hills are big piles of sand that eroded off the eastern slopes of the Rocky Mountains.

[RJ_Daley]

Here you go John:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleontology_in_Nebraska

An old friend of GCA.com who NLPs had a ranch near Valentine.  A creek ran through it as a trib of the Niarroba river.  Every spring runoff, they collected many fossils washing down from the deeper channels of the rivers and exposing the stuff underneath from various geologic era. 

[Stephen Davis]

No more negative thoughts, please!

This is a congratulatory thread about the Red course at Dismal River.  Brad Klein, one of the most influential and best golf course analysts, has rated the course among the 10 best modern courses in America.

This is cause for celebration.  The architect, the owner, and many club members are members of this website.

John,

Well said. I took this to be the same. Well done everyone! Whether it is the best course in America or the 201st, Dismal River is a wonderful place to be and the addition of a great course only made it better!

[Tim Pitner]

Sorry for the diversion, but I have to ask--are the greens at Pacific/Bandon Dunes and Ballyneal in as rough a shape as Whitaker states?  I haven't been to either place in 3-4 years.  Despite (because of?) their relatively slow speeds, I used to love the fescue greens of PD and BN.  They were as firm and true as any greens I've played. 

[Stephen Davis]

PD have had the most beat up greens of the courses at Bandon, however, it is to be expected for the reasons TD stated. I have never found that it has ever diminished the enjoyment of my round one bit, but I might not be as concerned with perfection in conditioning as others. As far as, Ballyneal goes, I was just up there on Friday with a couple of pros from my home club, and while the green surfaces were not glassy smooth, both guys said several times that you wouldn't want the green much faster than they were playing. Those are my 2 cents.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

"fair and balanced" is Terry Lavin's, presumably because Terry properly genuflected to Sand Hills at the start.

Not exactly...in a discussion of rankings he was the only person who bothered to compare it to other golf courses its ranked against. It just so happens that Sand Hills is #1 on the list that Brad edits.

PCraig:

To be fair, every time a discussion of either course at Dismal River has compared the courses to others -- and especially to Sand Hills or Ballyneal, their closest cousins -- it has started a s***storm on this site.  [I could have meant sandstorm, I guess.]  I have no desire to go there again, so I'd prefer to let Brad's article to speak for itself.  And he didn't compare it to other courses, directly.  He evaluated the strengths and weaknesses according to the criteria he's put in place.

For what it's worth, I tried to do a head-to-head comparison of Streamsong (Blue) and Dismal (Red), and found them about equal, which is what the GOLFWEEK rankings have them.  Of course, I would have them both kicking the ass of Dallas National, which GOLFWEEK has slightly higher than either, but I would just be accused of bias in saying so.  I'm biased -- but I'd love to see someone else do a head to head between Dismal and Dallas National.

Not been to Dismal Red yet, but in a head to head with Streamsong Blue I have DN losing 5 & 4

[Lou_Duran]

Not been to Dismal Red yet, but in a head to head with Streamsong Blue I have DN losing 5 & 4

Yeah, that's about as objective as having Terry Lavin do an Obama vs. G. W. Bush head-to-head.

I've played both (DN and DR-R) a number of times and it would be extremely hard to compare the two.  If one prefers "fun" (i.e. wide, a bit quirky, low slope/not too hard for a 12 to beat his index), DR-R wins in spades.  The golfer who wants a more complete test, can carry the ball 240+ yards, and is willing to accept some adversity probably prefers DN.  A more interesting H-t-H might be between DN and DR-W, both of which seem to depart somewhat from their designers' prior work.

I was under the impression that courses have to open officially for a period of time before they can be rated, so I am amazed that DR-R is ranked between 2 and 30 something after a soft-opening.  Might a good bit of self selection bias be involved?  And when the boss gives it a 9, what panelist who serves solely at his pleasure is going to give it a 6?

From my standpoint, each DR course benefits greatly from the other.  They are substantially different while sharing similar sites.  Both are a lot of fun to play, but I am not sure that I would return to such a remote location to play just one.  Like others, I am a big fan of Dismal River, Red and White, but the experience of the whole is greater that the sum of its parts (synergy, right?).      

[Carl Nichols]

Not been to Dismal Red yet, but in a head to head with Streamsong Blue I have DN losing 5 & 4

Yeah, that's about as objective as having Terry Lavin do an Obama vs. G. W. Bush head-to-head.
   

Terry gave Obama a 9.5 in 2009, but I wonder what his 2014 ranking would be.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Must admit I dont get the "as objective" remark but anyway.
I would think any head to head would be as objective no?
And as somebody who does indeed carry it 240 yards and likes a challenge I still give Dismal Blue a resounding victory over DN

As fot DN versus DRW just about as resounding a win for DN, for what that objective point of view is worth.

[Brent Hutto]

One person making up a numerical rating and assigning it to a golf course is an activity to which the word "objective" does not conceivably apply.

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