TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND

[Duncan Cheslett]

No mention yet of Reddish Vale - Duncan must be busy!

Sean already put it in his 'favourites' , so I thought I'd leave it at that!

While I'm here though, I'll have a go at my favourites...


1.  Reddish Vale
2.  Sherwood Forest
3.  Prestbury
4.  Sandiway
5.  Pleasington
6.  Alwoodley
7.  Delamere Forest
8.  Cavendish
9.  Beau Desert
10. Hollinwell

Honourable Mentions

Hopwood
Wilmslow
Stockport
Moortown
Ilkley
Oswestry
Woodhall Spa

I freely accept the inevitable charge of parochialism.  I have not yet ventured south of Birmingham or north of Harrogate on my golfing travels in England. I would suggest however, that this list illustrates the strength of northern inland golf.

[Brent Hutto]

Duncan,

For my day-of-arrival round on this year's upcoming UK golf vacation I looked at Sandiway and Delamere Forest as possibilities. I rather quickly settled in on the latter as it appeared from all descriptions to be a bit more open and, if not exactly an easier course, perhaps somewhat more accommodating to a jetlagged double-digit handicapper.

In fact based onMark Rowlinson's photo tour and other materials I've seen online, Delamere Forest looks like a wonderfully rolling bit of topography with plenty of variety among the holes in length and shape. Very inviting.

I'd be interested to hear your recollections of those two courses, now that you've mentioned them!

[Duncan Cheslett]

Brent,

You are quite right about your impressions of Delamere; it is a wonderful open heathland course on rolling hilly ground.

Sandiway is only a couple of miles away and on similar land. The big difference is that trees have been allowed to become a defining feature of the course without actually impacting on play in the main.

The result is that Delamere can feel a little stark and barren, while Sandiway to me feels warm and welcoming. I have no doubt that Delamere is the 'better' course architecturally; I just happen to prefer Sandiway.

[Brent Hutto]

Yeah, that's the part that's hard to tell from photos and satellite images. You can easily discern "open" from "stands of trees" but not all stands of trees necessarily make for a tight course. For instance, there are huge forests of trees in view on every single hole at Notts but with the exception of a couple of slightly more confined holes on the back nine most of the course has enormous open corridors of play. I personally have a lot of time for courses where I can see the forest without having to play through the trees, so to speak.

I do think Delamere has that wonderful movement to the land which adds visual interest even as it can seem a bit stark and bare for the lack of trees. Looking forward to see it in four weeks time, wish I could do two courses instead of one but as you'll recall from my day at Reddish Vale my legs tend to give out after about a dozen holes on arrival day!

[Bill_McBride]

Brent,

You are quite right about your impressions of Delamere; it is a wonderful open heathland course on rolling hilly ground.

Sandiway is only a couple of miles away and on similar land. The big difference is that trees have been allowed to become a defining feature of the course without actually impacting on play in the main.

The result is that Delamere can feel a little stark and barren, while Sandiway to me feels warm and welcoming. I have no doubt that Delamere is the 'better' course architecturally; I just happen to prefer Sandiway.

Delamere isn't completely barren.  There's a small forest separating the 9th and 18th holes, heritage trees around the perimeter, and some other wooded spots.  What a lovely course. 

[Ryan Coles]

1. Berkshire Red
2. Hankley Common
3. West Hill
4. New Zealand
5. Woking
6. Berkshire Blue
7. Remedy Oak
8. Broadstone
9. Wentworth
10. Minchinhampton (Cherington)

[Duncan Cheslett]

Brent,

You are quite right about your impressions of Delamere; it is a wonderful open heathland course on rolling hilly ground.

Sandiway is only a couple of miles away and on similar land. The big difference is that trees have been allowed to become a defining feature of the course without actually impacting on play in the main.

The result is that Delamere can feel a little stark and barren, while Sandiway to me feels warm and welcoming. I have no doubt that Delamere is the 'better' course architecturally; I just happen to prefer Sandiway.

Delamere isn't completely barren.  There's a small forest separating the 9th and 18th holes, heritage trees around the perimeter, and some other wooded spots.  What a lovely course.  

Yes, but it can feel a little barren. Particularly if they make you start from the tenth tee, which is common. Then your back nine (holes 1-9) are over the open windswept terrain which becomes the abiding memory you take away with you. Playing the holes in the correct order makes for a far more satisfying experience.

Have you played Sandiway, Bill? It really is lovely.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

not sure about Wentworth any more though as it was 25 years ago it was certainly top 10. What were your impressions of Remedy Oak? It looks an interesting course.

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think I asked this question before but can't find the thread...

Which courses are in contention for the best "modern" (post-1960) inland courses in England?... Even then there is a difference between the 60's and 70's courses (e.g. Woburn's first two) and those more shaped by the styles of the 80's and 90's... And then the 00's and 10's have become much more divergent in styles again...

[Mark Pearce]

I think I asked this question before but can't find the thread...

Which courses are in contention for the best "modern" (post-1960) inland courses in England?... Even then there is a difference between the 60's and 70's courses (e.g. Woburn's first two) and those more shaped by the styles of the 80's and 90's... And then the 00's and 10's have become much more divergent in styles again...

I think The Colt Course at Close House might be in the running there along with the Woburn courses.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I suppose you have the likes of:

The Grove
Bearwood Lakes
Queenwood
The Woburn courses
Remedy Oak
Chart Hills
The Belfry
The Wisley
Forest of Arden

Of the above, I have played the first 6 (to include 3 at Woburn) - Queenwood and Bearwood are the only two I would be keen to return to - Queenwood is excellent - can't imagine there's any better in this category but my interest is piqued by Close House...

Edit: anyone played the Centurion club?

What about Heythrop Park & Stapleford Park (Tom MacKenzie / Donald Steele)? Two golf courses that because of their historic landscapes did not use any containment mounding in creation of the fairways and thus (I guess?) feel all the more natural for it...

I have been to neither...

[Rich Goodale]

My full inchilotta (sic) only ranks 8 out of 10, as I have only played eight non-links in Ingerland.  The first six are a much of a muchness GCA-wise (similar in quality to Blairgowrie, Gleneagles (Kings), Lanark, Alyth, Ladybank, Glenbervie etc. up here in Scotchland), and the last is an OK 9-holer, but #7 still most warms the cockles of my heart...

1. Hankley Common
2. RAC (Old)
3. Alwoodley
4. Liphook
5. Swinley Forest
6. West Hill
7. Painswick
8. RAC (Coronation)

Next to play (in a few weeks) is The Northumberland, which is guaranteed to fit into my top-9, unless Newcastle doesn't count as being a part of The Land of Hope and Glory.

[Sean_A]

Ally

Stapleford Park looks interesting to me - I wouldn't mind playing it.

I think Saunton West could be called a modern as Pennink did serious revisions to the course prior to re-opening in 1974.  SW has as many fine holes as the East, but it may suffer slightly with consistency.  Of the newbies I have seen this would take the prize with Bearwood Lakes a close second.  I wouldn't rush back to either on full whack as both are a bit pricey for what they offer. 

Ciao   

[Tony_Muldoon]

Played Stapleford Park on "the hottest day for 100 years".


Due to heat fog and the need to get to the wedding they only let us play 10 holes.  Nice but didn't eave a huge impression.   Some land movement, modern greens.


Agree with Sean on SW and BL.   Did I post about Stockley Park,  played it several times and always had lots of fun?  definitely got the most out of the land.  I haven't been there since the recent changes, introduce a practice area  (which I hear they are trying to undo).

[Ally Mcintosh]

Saunton being a links though...

Bearwood Lakes looks like a good solid, modern... I'd be interested in comparing to Remedy Oak... And seeing Simon Gidman's Centurion Club... as well as Close House...

[Mark Bourgeois]

Nice to Minchinhampton get a mention, Ryan.

To this day I do not believe I've felt a greater sense of anticipation than when I stared out the clubhouse window at Delamere Forest.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Nice to Minchinhampton get a mention, Ryan.

To this day I do not believe I've felt a greater sense of anticipation than when I stared out the clubhouse window at Delamere Forest.

More than the few heathlands I've yet to see, the two inland courses I most want to visit in Ing-er-land are Ganton and Delamere Forest

[Bill_McBride]

Nice to Minchinhampton get a mention, Ryan.

To this day I do not believe I've felt a greater sense of anticipation than when I stared out the clubhouse window at Delamere Forest.

More than the few heathlands I've yet to see, the two inland courses I most want to visit in Ing-er-land are Ganton and Delamere Forest

Ally, you should try to add on Beau Desert.  The Fowler greens there are wilder than those at Delamere Forest.  Otherwise there is a similar feeling in their isolated locations.  Two fine inland courses be tween Manchester and Birmingham. 

[Thomas Dai]

Nice to Minchinhampton get a mention, Ryan.
To this day I do not believe I've felt a greater sense of anticipation than when I stared out the clubhouse window at Delamere Forest.

More than the few heathlands I've yet to see, the two inland courses I most want to visit in Ing-er-land are Ganton and Delamere Forest

Ally, you should try to add on Beau Desert.  The Fowler greens there are wilder than those at Delamere Forest.  Otherwise there is a similar feeling in their isolated locations.  Two fine inland courses be tween Manchester and Birmingham. 

A question about Delamere. Removing trees gets discussed herein quite a bit, and I'm no great fan of tree lined avenues, but with reference to the mention above of Delemere Forest being 'stark and barren', does that mean that an inland course can go too far the other way and not have enough trees?

As to inland courses generally, most of the major inland cities have a fine bunch of courses around them. For example, Birmingham, which is about as inland as one can get in the England, has a whole host of MacKenzie, Simpson/Fowler, Colt, Vardon, Braid etc courses such as clockwise from north Beau Desert, Little Aston, Sutton Coldfield, Whittington Heath, Copt Heath, Blackwell, Enville (x2), South Staffs plus inside the ring the likes of Harbourne and Edgbaston plus the lesser to some but still nice Olton and even Walsall with it's fab still original Dr MacK greens. Bound to be one or two I've missed out.....including one multi-Ryder Cup venue (sic).

As to Ally's query about inland best from the 60's to the present day I suggest you need to slip over the River Severn and play the 2010 at CM. Forget about the RC ho-ha and the TV and the publicity chat and the media articles and focus purely on the 18-holes themselves for I doubt you'll find a better 18-hole test of modern inland golf than the 2010. If in doubt actually play it, there are plenty of surprisingly cheap deals available, especially through the off-season, and the conditioning is superb.

atb

[Sean_A]

Duncan's description of Delamere as barren is not how I would describe the course.  There are quite a fee trees, but not much which blocks paths of play. 

ATB - Its hard to judge "how many trees should be on a site".  To me, trees should be used sparingly for strategy and mostly to

block unsightly views
block noise if in urban areas
visually enhance the course in terms of vistas, framing,height and interior views

That means the specimens should in the main be lookers.  I don't think they should usually be planted in large groups/huge areas, but instead be the odd copse and mainly stand alones or perhaps some pairs/threes.  Often time swhen driving around England is parks/estate areas that fit this bill perfectly.  Tons of open views to the country and majestic trees showcased against the landscape.  How did parkland ever move away from this park look to green walls?  Its a tragedy, when the feeling's gone and you can't go on...

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

On reflection, my use of the word 'barren' is based primarily on my experiences of playing Delamere on miserable winters days with the wind whistling across the open landscape in full  'Wuthering Heights' fashion.

The two occasions I've played Sandiway have been on glorious sunny days in summer.

I'm not a sophisticated enough connoisseur to be able to see past such obvious influences on my judgement.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I think I asked this question before but can't find the thread...

Which courses are in contention for the best "modern" (post-1960) inland courses in England?... Even then there is a difference between the 60's and 70's courses (e.g. Woburn's first two) and those more shaped by the styles of the 80's and 90's... And then the 00's and 10's have become much more divergent in styles again...

I've not played it yet but a good friend of mine is a member at Wellingborough and raves about it. The club moved to its current home in 1975 and it certainly looks the business on the website.

Any thoughts?

http://www.wellingboroughgolfclub.com/default.asp

[Thomas Dai]

ATB - Its hard to judge "how many trees should be on a site".  To me, trees should be used sparingly for strategy and mostly to
-block unsightly views
-block noise if in urban areas
-visually enhance the course in terms of vistas, framing,height and interior views
That means the specimens should in the main be lookers.  I don't think they should usually be planted in large groups/huge areas, but instead be the odd copse and mainly stand alones or perhaps some pairs/threes.  Often time swhen driving around England is parks/estate areas that fit this bill perfectly.  Tons of open views to the country and majestic trees showcased against the landscape.  How did parkland ever move away from this park look to green walls?  Its a tragedy, when the feeling's gone and you can't go on...
Ciao

Sean, thanks for this. Nicely summarised. I pretty much feel the same. This is one of the reasons I like the Rolls of Monmouth. No avenues of green instead what you'd expect from a yee olde country estate cum alboretum, numerous wonderful individual specimen trees with the course carefully routed to bring them into play - true 'bunkers in the sky'. I can understand how a course cut through a forest, like Ross on Wye for example, would have multiple green avenues but you're right IMO that it's a tragedy that many parkland courses, and I'm picturing a 'parkland' landscape as being almost traditional Capability Brown like with long views, cattle grazing on the far side of a ha-ha, maybe even 'follies' in the distance and all that, have turned into green walls.

Duncan, I like the 'Wuthering Heights' description! I'm interested in Delemere as it's somewhere I've heard lots of good things about and, as someone who is a 'Fowler fan' I'd like certainly to play. I had spotted some Open Comps held there as possible playing opportunities but alas not this year.

atb

[Brent Hutto]

Mark Rowlinson and myself are booked at Delamere Forest on Thursday, Sept. 18 and I see no mention on their web site of them being a 2-ball club or anything like that. For my part, there's always room for a third and I'm presuming Mark feels the same.

Thomas, Duncan or others...feel free to send me a PM for details if you like. I am personally anticipating a "glorious sunny day" and in any case such is at least a fair possibility in mid-September.

[Thomas Dai]

Mark Rowlinson and myself are booked at Delamere Forest on Thursday, Sept. 18 and I see no mention on their web site of them being a 2-ball club or anything like that. For my part, there's always room for a third and I'm presuming Mark feels the same.
Thomas, Duncan or others...feel free to send me a PM for details if you like. I am personally anticipating a "glorious sunny day" and in any case such is at least a fair possibility in mid-September.

Very kind offer Brent, unfortunately the 18th is already committed. Hope you enjoy DF and coastal west Wales too.
atb