[Cob Carlson]

Folks: Some of you have probably read previous threads touting my film "Donald Ross: Discovering the Legend." Tom Doak was very gracious in agreeing to be interviewed for the film. He is terrific throughout the movie. In particular, during the 'Ross in Massachusetts' section of the film, he waxes poetically on the nine holes at Whitinsville. That alone is worth the $20 cost of the DVD.

BTW, I have played there a number of times, and it is an absolutely wonderful track. Fun, easy to walk, and a true test for even the best of players. I tried to qualify for the MASS Open there a few years back, and with the greens running at least 11, there were many three putts to be had...including the 3rd green, which is quite large and deceptively difficult when missed in the wrong place.

I highly recommend folks put in on their bucket list

[Ronald Montesano]

Visual learner that I am, I'll help y'all weigh in on these two fine courses. Draw your own conclusions.

I played and shot W in 2013, then played and shot D in 2014. Here goes.

Overhead Looks

Dunes Club Overhead with Hole Numbers



Whitinsville Golf Club Overhead with Hole Numbers

[Ken Fry]

Ronald,

The overhead shot of The Dunes Club is outdated and doesn't show the massive tree removal all over the course, the new greens for holes #1, 6, 7 and 8 and the expansion of the teeing areas for hole #6.

Looking at this old areal brings home the great changes Jim Urbina did recently at Dunes.

Ken

[Terry Lavin]

Ken, I agree, but thing the course would be much better if we took down 1000 trees this winter. It would add width, light and wind everywhere and would give a player more options off the tee, particularly at #7.

[Ken Fry]

Ken, I agree, but thing the course would be much better if we took down 1000 trees this winter. It would add width, light and wind everywhere and would give a player more options off the tee, particularly at #7.

Terry,

I'm anxious to see the changes proposed for the 7th tee.  The new green complex has greatly improved that hole and turned what I thought was the weakest hole on the course into a fun challenge.

Ken

[Ronald Montesano]

Ronald,

The overhead shot of The Dunes Club is outdated and doesn't show the massive tree removal all over the course, the new greens for holes #1, 6, 7 and 8 and the expansion of the teeing areas for hole #6.

Looking at this old areal brings home the great changes Jim Urbina did recently at Dunes.

Ken

Best we can do for now. I'm binging it as I type, to see if anything new comes up.

When I played the course this fall, I played the new greens, so my ground-level photos should be up to snuff.

Bing was no help. Lots of trees in their image, too.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #1-Dunes Club







Hole #1-Whitinsville Golf Club

[Paul Gray]

Ronald,

Your pictures, surely, are pre tree removal?

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #2-Dunes Club





Hole #2-Whitinsville Golf Club

[Ronald Montesano]

A brief interlude, brought to you by the thread author's earlier musing about comparing apples with apples.

par at W is 5-3-4-4-4-4-3-4-4 while par at D is 4-3-5-4-4-3-4-5-4

If I were attempting to match like holes, beginning with the short holes, I'd contrast W #2 and D #2, then W #7 and D #7 (which matches up perfectly.)

Moving on to the mid-range holes, I'd go with the following alignments: #5 W with #1 D (Both are demanding, two-shot holes), #6 W with #5 D (both have water hazards in front), #3 W with #7 D (both play to elevated greens), #4 W with #4 D (getting more difficult to draw comparisons) and #8 W with #9 D (now I'm at a total loss.)

Finally, with the long holes, #1 W with #3 D, and #9 W with #8 D. The reason for the latter is two-fold: W has but one three-shot hole. However, the most demanding hole at W is #9 and the likewise, #8 at D. That's my rationale.

If anyone who knows the two courses intimater than I, wishes to support me or take issue with my suggestions, the stage is yours.

[Jim Sherma]

How much of the comparison between these courses boils down to maintenance preferences? I have played neither course but based on the photo tours Whittensville falls into my sweet-spot as far as maintenance style goes. The Dunes Club's more rustic/rougher maintenance style would not dissuade me from loving the course as an occasional flavor. However, I could easily see Whittensville's maintenance meld and parkland aesthetic as a course that if I lived down the street I could be happy at 4 or 5 days a week for a very long time.

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #3-Dunes Club







Hole #3-Whitinsville Golf Club

[Sean_A]

Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is. 

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

Hole #4-Dunes Club






Hole #4-Whitinsville Golf Club

[Chris DeToro]

How much of the comparison between these courses boils down to maintenance preferences? I have played neither course but based on the photo tours Whittensville falls into my sweet-spot as far as maintenance style goes. The Dunes Club's more rustic/rougher maintenance style would not dissuade me from loving the course as an occasional flavor. However, I could easily see Whittensville's maintenance meld and parkland aesthetic as a course that if I lived down the street I could be happy at 4 or 5 days a week for a very long time.

Jim, I think it has more to do with the location of the two clubs and how they fit into their natural landscapes than the maintenance style.  The Dunes Club is amidst the sand dunes of southwest Michigan, whereas Whitinsville fits into the natural landscape of central Mass. 

[Ronald Montesano]

How much of the comparison between these courses boils down to maintenance preferences? I have played neither course but based on the photo tours Whittensville falls into my sweet-spot as far as maintenance style goes. The Dunes Club's more rustic/rougher maintenance style would not dissuade me from loving the course as an occasional flavor. However, I could easily see Whittensville's maintenance meld and parkland aesthetic as a course that if I lived down the street I could be happy at 4 or 5 days a week for a very long time.

Jim, I think it has more to do with the location of the two clubs and how they fit into their natural landscapes than the maintenance style.  The Dunes Club is amidst the sand dunes of southwest Michigan, whereas Whitinsville fits into the natural landscape of central Mass. 

Trust me on this: if you lived down the street from either course and had access, you could be happy 4 to 5 decades of your life.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is. 

Ciao

Just going off the pics, these look like two underperformers.

[Ronald Montesano]

Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is. 

Ciao

Just going off the pics, these look like two underperformers.

I wish that Sean would elaborate on what he perceives each club's "presentation" to be and whether he agrees with it.

I have absolutely no idea how you can arrive at this conclusion, Mark. Care to elaborate?

[Sean_A]

Its comparison photos such as these which really drives home how important course presentation is. 

Ciao

Just going off the pics, these look like two underperformers.

Mark

I don't know if either aren't doing as well as they could because I don't know the intentions of the designers.  But I can say not being a fan of green walls, I much prefer the presentation Whit to Dunes.  That said, some other architectural elements such as the bunkering looks quite interesting at Dunes.  Both look like they are worth a go, but I wonder if frustration would set in at Dunes.  

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ron:

Just off the pics: looks like Dunes Club needs to lose a ton of trees. Like in your pic of 1 and 4 tees: why aren't those greens visible?

Whitinsville looks in better shape but it appears they need to widen their mowing lines. Some bunkers appear at least touching the fairway, which is a start, but more need to be rescued from rough. Maybe dig up some old aerials and see how it looked when Ross wasn't dead. And a question: what's with that tree in the crook of the dogleg on 4?  

[Ronald Montesano]

Why must greens be visible from tees?

I suspect that the tree on #4 at Whitinsville is one of those that grew up and the membership just can't bear to take it down.

[Stephen Pellegrino]

Mark B.-
A good amount of fairway widening has occurred at W'ville and an equally significant amount of green expansion. Gil and the former superintendent were in possession of the original DR renderings of each hole, and used them as their guide when developing the W'ville master plan. By way of example, the fairway bunkers on #5 were once completely surrounded by rough. They are now completely surrounded by fairway. I belive that this was also the case with the bunker on #3.

As far as greens expansions are concerned, W'ville has been aggressive in this regard for the past decade. For example, much of the ride side of #1 green was ROUGH. It was lovingly transitioned from long grass to short grass, and then from short grass to putting surface. Anyone who has been above the hole on that right side knows how wise the decision was to recapture this area of the green.

Ron-
While much tree removal has occurred at W'ville, I believe that the REMAINING trees which have been most heavily debated are those to the left of the DZ on #1 and those on the inside of the dogleg on #4. While all agree that the removal of the white pines left of #1 would be a massive improvement, there is a worry that these trees provide real protection for the players on #7 green. As for #4, safety is not an issue. Rather, the elimination of specimen trees that provide (debateably) strategic interest is something that has been given a good deal of thought. On both of these holes, I believe that Gil has advocated for tree removal.

-Stephen

[Sean_A]

Why must greens be visible from tees?

While I wouldn't say "must", I do think seeing a green on a dogleg can create the line of charm/line of instinct choice...its about temptation.  Create a bowling alley effect and that temptation is likely removed...and thus may be created in another way or perhaps not at all.  That said, perhaps the designer's vision was to have those choices limited.  Thats okay too, but I prefer temptation. 

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

Stephen,

Those are excellent revelations. Keep them coming. There is an enormous tree on the 17th hole at CCBuffalo that was not there when DJR designed the course. The membership opted, after the Forse review, to keep the tree. For pure restoration, it was a mistake, as the fairway could not be pushed back to the left as was originally built.

I understand the need to protect golfers on the seventh green. In my mind, no one should need to see the green on #1 W, whose view the pines currently obstruct.

Sean,

As has been posted earlier in the thread by a few Dunes denizens, a tree-removal plan is active at that club. In fact, when we were there in September, the crew was marking trunks that would soon be felled. There is a Pine Valley homage-element to Dunes and the elimination of too many trees might diminish this directive.

At Dunes, they utilize zero tee markers. You play a ball from whichever point you opt. In match play, the previous hole's winner makes the call. Take #3 tee as an example. A left-to-right player might be just fine playing from the far right of the tee deck. A right-to-left player would opt to go to the far left to play a right-handed draw (an impossibility from the right side.)

I never felt claustrophobic on any tee ball. When I get to the 7th hole, you will see a stand of trees up the left. The majority of these are coming down, to open up a tempting view of the green from the tee. 7 is the one potentially-driveable par four on the course, so this option will now become a reality.

[Sean_A]

Ronald

Thanks.  Save your pix and lets hope someone else does a tour next year.  A before and after would be interesting. 

Do you know if the tree removal is to represent the original design or if there is a change of philosophy?

Ciao

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