[Pete Lavallee]

Tom,

In the Confidential Guide you said Whitinsville had 6 World Class holes. Obviously 3 and 4 wouldn't fall into that group; which hole besides those doesn't make the Top 6?

[JMEvensky]

Okay, I will try to do that at the end, to see if the two approaches differ in terms of results.

I do think you're making a bit more of the difference than there is ... a lot of architecture IS about how the individual holes play.

I don't mean to tell you how to conduct your own competition--this was Peter's stupid idea and he made me go along with it.

Agreed architecture is ultimately about playing. But I think most of us on here expect you to give us the inside baseball of the design--something we can only speculate about.

[Chris DeToro]

Okay, I will try to do that at the end, to see if the two approaches differ in terms of results.

I do think you're making a bit more of the difference than there is ... a lot of architecture IS about how the individual holes play.

I don't mean to tell you how to conduct your own competition--this was Peter's stupid idea and he made me go along with it.

Agreed architecture is ultimately about playing. But I think most of us on here expect you to give us the inside baseball of the design--something we can only speculate about.

It's interesting to hear it from the playing side.  I think the architect view comes out somewhat subconsciously

[Tom_Doak]

Fourth hole up:

The fourth at Whitinsville is not for everybody; well, mostly not for right-handers who hit a power fade.  It's a medium-length par-4 playing back opposite #3 toward the road, doglegging left around a large tree that's a bit over 200 yards off the tee [guessing as I don't have Google Earth handy].  The golfer who can hit a draw gains great advantage here.  Those who play the power fade may have to lay back off the tee so as not to visit the tree line down the right, which is extra tough because that leaves a long second shot to a well defended green with a steep drop off the back.  This was one of the three holes I said wasn't world-class, but I was still impressed with it on my last visit.

The fourth at The Dunes Club plays back parallel with the par-5 3rd; in fact, the midsection of The Dunes property has five parallel fairways lined up in a row [3, 4, 5, 8, 9, with the 1st a bit removed over a ridge].  This is a strong two-shotter with lots of trouble up the right side for leaky second shots.  It's a bit harder hole than the one at Whitinsville, but for me the two are pretty even in terms of quality.

I will give the fourth hole to The Dunes, though I think it was very close -- pulling the match back to all square.  Adam gives this hole to The Dunes, putting it 2 up on his card.  Guess that shows what a subjective exercise this is.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Dunes Club wins both #3 and #4 for me... Taking the match to back to even... I like the little artsy stuff on The Dunes #3, it is all in strategic places. I also like looking over the fence at the open bit of property. Overall I would say both #3's are stronger than both #4's.

[Cliff Hamm]

Surprised no one has mentioned the green on 3 at W. It is tremendous and difficult.  Lots of contour with steep back to front slope.  If the pin is back and you go over good luck. Also, the long hitter can carry the tree gaining great advantage.

[Tom_Doak]

On to the fifth hole - could it be a turning point in our match?

The 5th at Whitinsville is a long par-4 playing to the far back corner of the property.  After crossing the road from the 4th green, the tee shot plays roughly parallel to the road as it recedes into the trees along the right.  A hill on the right with a prominent fairway bunker intrudes into the fairway.  If you play away from it the drive bounces to the left and maybe through the fairway, but if you challenge the bunker with a good drive it kicks forward and leaves a much shorter second shot into a well guarded plateau green.

The 5th at The Dunes Club is a medium length par-4.  The tee shot is played straight ahead into a reasonably wide fairway with native grasses and sand to both sides; the challenge is the second shot, played straight over the course's irrigation pond to an oasis of green with a large dune ridge directly behind.  The green is one of the best on the course, with a good back to front slope and a prominent shelf in the green.

Tough call here.  Personally I'm not a big fan of forced carries over water, so The Dunes Club is starting in the hole, though it's a fine hole of its type.  Meanwhile, the 5th at Whitinsville is one that didn't wow me until my last visit; I think Gil must have cleared some trees or widened the fairway to bring out more of the strategy in the tee shot.  But on that last visit, the 5th jumped up in my estimation to being one of the best holes at Whitinsville, and I have to give it the nod here.

On my card, that puts Whitinsville back to 1 up.  Adam scored it a draw, keeping The Dunes 2 up in his analysis.

[Chris DeToro]

Agreed--the 5th is one of my favorite on the property at Whitinsville

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

It's interesting that given my draw, you'd think I'd love the 4th at Whitinsville, but I actually found the tee shot rather awkward, doglegging a bit too early in my mind... that's why the nod went to 4th at Dunes.

The 5th holes are so different, yet I liked both very much.  I know the carry over the water is not going to appeal to everyone and the tee shot at Whitinsville is a cool Ross feature that you see in many of his drawings but the bunkers (like the one on 4 at Rolling Rock) disappear.  But, I really liked the green setting on #5 at the Dunes and the green is full of interesting putts.  It's been a while since my last visit to Whitinsville so I haven't had a chance to see Gil's work, so based upon that, the holes halve. 

[Jaeger Kovich]

I'll take Whitinsville's #5... I was fairly put off by the long walk back to the tee at The Dunes. #5, is in the series of parallel holes, and the only way to differentiate these holes was staggering the tees. I'm sure the tree clearing behind the green for the new tees on #6 has helped the green site, but I just hate the idea of being forced to walk so far out of the way, just to make the carry of the water work... At least walking across the road makes sense in Mass.

That puts Whitinsville back to +1 in my match.

[Terry Lavin]

I've never played Whittinsville and I'll give it the win here. The forced carry over water to a shallow, if wide, green won't win many matches in my view.

[Tom_Doak]

Since everyone has weighed in on #5, and I'm traveling tomorrow, I will post hole #6 now.

In some ways it's a shame that we have to keep comparing these courses by hole number, because the 6th at Whitinsville and the 7th at The Dunes are both interesting short 4's, and their counterparts are both very good par-3's, and it would be simpler to compare those holes straight up.  But, we'll stick to the rules we brought.

The 6th at Whitinsville is just a wonderful hole of the sort that seems to be getting lost in the shuffle in today's game -- the classic drive and pitch hole.  The hole reverses course on #5, playing out to high ground just before another deep swale through the property, and then doglegging sharply to the right for a pitch over the swale to a green set precariously at the top on the far side.  There is a bunker [or two?] at the inside of the dogleg, and another deep one to the right of the green, so there is no question of cutting the corner.  The green is probably the most severe of any on the course, as well, with some steep sections and some falling away to the right.  Heck of a hole.

The 6th at The Dunes is a daunting par-3, with its green and the main tees set atop the ridge just behind the 5th green [changing direction by 90 degrees from all the parallel fairways, playing from left to right as you look up from #5].  There are also tees down below the ridge to the left, and a new tee to the right that I'm having a hard time visualizing, honestly.  It is a hole that can change character and play almost however you want it to play, but no more than a mid-iron if my memory serves.

When in doubt, I'll go with the magnificent green almost any time.  The par-4 at Whitinsville wins the day for me, and for Adam as well.

[Bill_McBride]

I've never played Whittinsville and I'll give it the win here. The forced carry over water to a shallow, if wide, green won't win many matches in my view.

You have #12 Augusta in mind?   

[Terry Lavin]

I've never played Whittinsville and I'll give it the win here. The forced carry over water to a shallow, if wide, green won't win many matches in my view.

You have #12 Augusta in mind?   

Not really, since it's a short one-shotter. 

[Cliff Hamm]

Tom... We have a different conception of distance. I am a short hitter,who only drives the ball 200 yards on a good day. The fifth at Whitinsville is not a challenge to carry the bunker.

The sixth, on the other hand, is anything but short for me. It is 385 and then 405.  Almost all carry to the green, as if you land short of the green, it will hit the hill and roll down to thethe valley. You then have a blind shot to the green.

I play to a 17 and it is rare for me to reach the green. It is far from a drive and a pitch, but it may be so for others. I also love that the fringe of the green on the backside goes downhill to the next tee. If you're over the chip or putt is  a killer. It is not unheard up to chip up the hill from over and end up on the other side, now short of the green.

Just a tremendous hole.

[Terry Lavin]

In some ways it's a shame that we have to keep comparing these courses by hole number, because the 6th at Whitinsville and the 7th at The Dunes are both interesting short 4's, and their counterparts are both very good par-3's, and it would be simpler to compare those holes straight up.  But, we'll stick to the rules we brought.

I agree with this sentiment.  It probably makes more sense to compare 3's to 3's, et cetera, but this is a pretty easy format to follow, so we're better off sticking with it.  Having said that, I think #6 at Dunes Club is one of the most scenic and challenging inland par-3's that I've ever played.

[Anthony Fowler]

I had a chance to see the Dunes Club today, so I'm ready to chime in with my score card up to this point.

The 1st hole goes to Whitinsville. I love this hole for all the reasons that I discussed before. The 1st at Dunes is good, but the tee shot is a little crammed, and there's not much excitement here. The bunkering behind the green is beautiful but doesn't really come into play. The shaved area to the left of the green is cool, but this hole doesn't keep up with the wonderful green on the 1st at Whitinsville.

I'm calling the second hole a draw. It's hard to compare these two great par 3's because they have such different characters. I love the variety of tees at the Dunes, along with a beautiful setting and interesting green. It's also hard to beat the charm and fun of the 2nd at Whitinsville. Because I could debate the merits of the two holes all day, I have to call this a draw.

The 3rd hole goes to the Dunes Club. I agree with others that 3 and 4 are the weakest holes at Whitinsville partly because they're disconnected and you can't wait to get back to the other side of the road (even though the holes have their merits). The 3rd at Dunes is a great par 5 which is reachable from some tees and in some winds and a really engaging three shotter from the back tee or into the wind. The green is interesting, and the bunkers around the green are spectacular.

The 4th hole also goes to the Dunes Club. It's just a good, solid par 4 requiring two good shots to a small target with a lot of subtle contour on the green. The 4th at Whitinsville is fun. I remember having fun with the tee shot and figuring how to navigate the big tree on the left, but in the end, it didn't seem to matter that much, because the hole is relatively short and forgiving.

The 5th goes to Whitinsville. This is a relatively tight hole off the tee, but the approach shot with a mid iron to a raised green is wonderful. The 5th at Dunes has no interesting strategy and it's probably my least favorite green on the course (just two levels without a lot of internal movement on each level).

The 6th is another draw. I really love both holes for reasons that others have already mentioned. The right tee box at Dunes is really great, so Tom, you should get back there and remind yourself. Because I love both for different reasons, I have to call this one a tie.

At this point, that leaves the courses even through 6 on my card. I look forward to discussing this further.

[William_G]

interesting discussion yet these type of comps always evoke the thought  that "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" and thus are superfluous

thus I need to play or see them regardless of the discussion, LOL

[Tom_Doak]

As I am heading to NZ tonight, I will post the 7th hole this morning, and the last two while waiting for my flight ... assuming I have time.  Otherwise it's going to be a few days before I can finish.  I'll post all my scores for the remaining holes [and Adam's] on the scorecard on page 2, so the discussion can continue without me.  Funny enough, we've been apart on many holes through #6, but we agree on each of the last three.

The seventh at Whitinsville is a fine long par-3 across another of the deep valleys in the property ... the green sits close to the back of the first green and second tee, and very close to the slope in front, although it's not as steep short of the green as the previous hole.  There are two bunkers guarding the right of the green, and one on the left just a bit removed from the line of play, so the hole feels a bit left to right even though the approach is open across the front.  At about 180 yards, it is a really good, straightforward hole.

The seventh at The Dunes is a short par-4 with a sharp dogleg to the left.  From the first time I saw it, I've thought it was the one really awkward hole on the course, crammed into the back of the property.  The tee is on the end of the long ridge and the green is back up against it, but the fairway plays well out to the right.  In the early days the vegetation inside the corner was quite thick and the hole was a definite lay-up out to the right.  More recently they have cut trees and thinned out the rough to try to encourage golfers to hit a more risky tee shot up the left, but it still doesn't set up right for me.

I give the 7th hole to Whitinsville, which neatly wraps up the match for me, 3 up with 2 to play.  Adam also gives it to Whitinsville, pulling his match all square.  The Dunes Club fans will cry foul here, with the course's best hole on deck.

[Terry Lavin]

Can't argue since I don't know Whittinsville but you're right that the Keiserophiles will cry foul since 6 lost (despite being an amazing par-3) and 8 and 9 are irrelevant on the Doak card despite being the best consecutive holes on the course.

As for 7, I am in agreement. We need to cut down a bunch of trees on the left and open a view of the green to give a bomber a risk reward option off the tee. The hole is too one-dimensional now.

[Anthony Fowler]

Since others have posted their full scorecards, I'll do the same.

I'll diverge from the rest and give 7 to the Dunes Club. I agree that the hole is a little tight and awkward off the tee, but there is room to challenge the hole if you're willing to take on some risk. The hole looks and feels very different from the left tee box which is a nice feature. I really like the approach shot here. It's slightly uphill and the green complex is really interesting. You can use the back left portion of the green as a backboard, but if you go long, you'll have a very difficult up and down. 7 at Whitinsville is also very good but strikes me as a big more generic. I've seen a lot of holes like it before, but 7 at Dunes is more unique and interesting.

I'll wait to discuss 8 and 9, but I will give 8 to the Dunes Club and 9 to Whitinsville. 8 is one of the best holes at the Dunes and 9 at Whitinsville is a true masterpiece. Unfortunately, it came too late as Dunes won my match 2&1.

I'll agree with others that the hole-by-hole match masks a lot of interesting comparisons between the courses and discussions of them. I'm sure that will follow as the matches conclude. Even though the individual holes at Dunes are very strong (winning my match), I think the overall course and experience may be better at Whitinsville. For example, the five par 4's at Dunes are all pretty good, but there's not much variety. Playing each one twice, I never hit more than a 5 iron or less than a 9 iron for my second shot on a par 4, and I usually had a relatively flat lie hitting to a green that was at the same level or slightly above me. Whitinsville is the opposite story where holes like 5 and 9 can really challenge you, holes like 4, 6, and 8 require a lot of finesse, and almost every shot provides a different experience and challenge.

[Tom_Doak]

I will post my thoughts on 8 and 9 together.

The eighth at Whitinsville is a short par-4 doglegging left, the only hole on the course that feels just slightly awkward to me.  Actually, it would have been a good companion for The Dunes #7, it's sort of a similar hole.  The tee shot is back over the valley you hit across at the par-3 7th, and only a good drive will get up the hill far enough to get a good view of the green.

The eighth at The Dunes has always been the most talked about hole on the course.  Like the 3rd hole, the fairway is interrupted just past the driving zone, but here the green is in a bowl atop a good-sized hill, and it would be in reach if only you could keep all the trees down the left side of the hole out of play ... but from a practical standpoint, if you're going for the green, you have to risk the possibility of hitting a tree and making a big number.  Most people therefore play it conservatively.  The only thing I have against the hole is that short hitters may not be able to get clear of the trees with two reasonable shots up the right ... that's pretty harsh!  But it's an easy winner in this match.


The ninth hole is also an easy win, this time for Whitinsville.  The 9th at Whitinsville was one of three holes Donald Ross chose to illustrate for George Thomas in his book, GOLF ARCHITECTURE IN AMERICA.  The topography is spectacular, as you play your tee shot over the edge of a beautiful wetland pond.  The landing area for the tee shot is at the end of a bluff about 200 yards from the green, which you approach diagonally ... if you can hit the tee shot far enough from the left tee, or far enough right from the back tee, you carry off the plateau and down the hill to a lower bit of fairway, which puts the green much closer.  It's a great par-4.

The ninth at The Dunes is indeed a fine par-4, as Terry mentions ... almost as difficult a hole as Whitinsville's, because the raised green is very well defended by a bunker front right-center, and the fairway is none too wide.  It's probably the best par-4 of the bunch, just too bad it's up against one of my favorite holes in golf here.


Someone earlier commented on "the sum being greater than the parts" and I do feel that's true of The Dunes.  There are not many courses in America which present a better low-key atmosphere for golf, with the tiny clubhouse and the large patio and the walk-in-the-woods feel of the course.  It feels like a private estate course, which in some respects is how it started.  If ambiance had counted for anything in this match, it might have been enough to change my winner.

By the same token, it was interesting to see Anthony's take on the atmosphere at Whitinsville.  I have always been an interloper there, but it does have the right "townie" atmosphere for a small town nine hole gem ... it's anything but posh, but the members are very proud of it.  The key for me is that it is just a beautiful piece of land for golf, and there is a bit more elbow room for the routing to use the topography than at The Dunes, which I would guess is between 10 and 20 acres smaller, and sometimes feels a bit crowded together.  [Actually, I need to do that comparison on Google Earth when I have time.  Ross was a master at routing, so Whitinsville may be more compact than I realize.]

Bottom line, these are two wonderful nine hole courses ... by my count the two best America has to offer.  In fact, there are not many courses in America among America's top 50 where the inferior nine would be better than either of these.  Fans of one course or the other tend to discount the possibility that there could be another nine holer of equal merit, but they are dead wrong.  I would encourage everyone who has the chance to seek out both courses.

I know I've promised to do an "architectural" comparison of the two courses also, and I will try to get to it later this week, assuming I have a decent internet connection in NZ [which is very iffy in the small town where we are working].  If I'm offline, I'll be busy trying to put the finishing touches on a course that might be better than these (!).   I'll check back when I can.

[Jaeger Kovich]

6 - Halve (W +1)
7 - Dunes (Even)
8 - Dunes (D +1)
9 - Whitinsville (Even, through 9: Winner Whitinsvile)

That makes them even at the turn. But Whitinsville wins in a playoff for having the best individual hole between both.

6-7 were the only ones I couldn't easily decide on, I was thinking about it for 3 days. I really like the par-3 at the Dunes. I liked how the tees are crammed into the ridge, and the shared aspect with 8. The alternative angle works better here than #2. But Whitinsville has a better green, so I just decided to call it a halve, since its matchplay.

[Anthony Fowler]

Let's talk more about the 8th hole at the Dunes Club. The tee box is elevated, and you have to hit a ~220 yard shot to a reasonably narrow target. You'd like to be on the left side of the fairway off the tee so that you can easily hit your second shot to the right side of the fairway. The second shot should be no more than ~190 yards and far enough right to avoid the massive trees that encroach the left side of the fairway. Then, you'll have just a short wedge shot slightly uphill to a blind green that's protected by mounds and subtle internal undulation. Distance control is important on the third, because a miss short could hit the mounding and go anywhere. Even though I don't love tight three-shot holes in general, every shot is fairly interesting, and the hole is just beautiful.

One feature that makes 8 all the more exciting is that you can try to hit a driver into the 5th fairway (left of the hole) and go for the green in two (where you're fare enough to the left that the trees up by the green are no longer in play. If you pursue this option, the tee shot is relatively forgiving, and then you might have a blind shot with a fairway wood into the green. I have no idea if the architect or club intended for this to be a viable option, but it certainly is. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks about this.

[abmack]

I've been to both!... Plus the Sacred 9, to complete the trifecta!

Best in America first, then the winner can go for the World Championship.

Tom,

Has a decision been reached as to who wins the title of Best 9-holer in America? It seems Whitinsville has the edge... If so, has a date been set for a comparison of that course with Royal Worlington & Newmarket? I am very interested in hearing other opinions as to which course has more merit. Having played both several times, I think it could be a close and worthy match.

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