[John Kavanaugh]

Let's try not to forget that these guys played the ball down in horrid conditions.  It was an amazing display of talent.

I came away from this experience with a new found respect for the PGA and her members.

[Terry Lavin]

Let's try not to forget that these guys played the ball down in horrid conditions.  It was an amazing display of talent.

I came away from this experience with a new found respect for the PGA and her members.

The mud balls were not inconsequential. Just ask Phil.

[jeffwarne]

...

why type nonsense such as a "putting contest" when you don't even know the stats?

Jeff,

Let's revisit the whole issue. Let's call it the Ben Hogan issue (as I alluded to in my post above, because the words "putting contest" are not mine). If Ben Hogan had viewed the tournament, he would have been appalled by the fact that you could place your tee ball almost anywhere, hit your approach and hold the green. He would be appalled by the fact that the longest balls off the tee had no chance of running into trouble. In effect, the softness of the greens ruled out almost the whole game of golf. You might as well have held a putting contest, because supreme ball striking skills like Ben's would have been nearly useless in such conditions.

But then again, that advent of the new ball would have diminished Ben's advantages already before we got to the tournament in question.

Who really cares what supposedly Hogan would've thought about the tournament?
It didn't rain back then?
again, it was soft-so be it.
Do you not think Rory has superior ball striking skills?
He'd have kicked Hogan's ass by 20 shots when Hogan was 25-he hadn't won diddly at that age .

[Garland Bayley]

...

why type nonsense such as a "putting contest" when you don't even know the stats?

Jeff,

Let's revisit the whole issue. Let's call it the Ben Hogan issue (as I alluded to in my post above, because the words "putting contest" are not mine). If Ben Hogan had viewed the tournament, he would have been appalled by the fact that you could place your tee ball almost anywhere, hit your approach and hold the green. He would be appalled by the fact that the longest balls off the tee had no chance of running into trouble. In effect, the softness of the greens ruled out almost the whole game of golf. You might as well have held a putting contest, because supreme ball striking skills like Ben's would have been nearly useless in such conditions.

But then again, that advent of the new ball would have diminished Ben's advantages already before we got to the tournament in question.

Who really cares what supposedly Hogan would've thought about the tournament?
It didn't rain back then?
again, it was soft-so be it.
Do you not think Rory has superior ball striking skills?
He'd have kicked Hogan's ass by 20 shots when Hogan was 25-he hadn't won diddly at that age .

Nick Faldo cares. He's the one that termed modern golf a putting contest compared to the game Ben played. So the criticism goes farther than just wet conditions.

Ben in his prime had far better ball striking skills that Rory ever will. But Rory has no chance to learn the skills Ben possessed, primarily because the ball has changed.

[jeffwarne]

...

why type nonsense such as a "putting contest" when you don't even know the stats?

Jeff,

Let's revisit the whole issue. Let's call it the Ben Hogan issue (as I alluded to in my post above, because the words "putting contest" are not mine). If Ben Hogan had viewed the tournament, he would have been appalled by the fact that you could place your tee ball almost anywhere, hit your approach and hold the green. He would be appalled by the fact that the longest balls off the tee had no chance of running into trouble. In effect, the softness of the greens ruled out almost the whole game of golf. You might as well have held a putting contest, because supreme ball striking skills like Ben's would have been nearly useless in such conditions.

But then again, that advent of the new ball would have diminished Ben's advantages already before we got to the tournament in question.

Who really cares what supposedly Hogan would've thought about the tournament?
It didn't rain back then?
again, it was soft-so be it.
Do you not think Rory has superior ball striking skills?
He'd have kicked Hogan's ass by 20 shots when Hogan was 25-he hadn't won diddly at that age .

Nick Faldo cares. He's the one that termed modern golf a putting contest compared to the game Ben played. So the criticism goes farther than just wet conditions.

Ben in his prime had far better ball striking skills that Rory ever will. But Rory has no chance to learn the skills Ben possessed, primarily because the ball has changed.

again, what would Hogan do if it rained 4 days? quit?

Ben couldn't win or even come close at age 25 on a 30 or so man tour.
He went on to be a great ballstriker in his 30's.
If Rory is already this good-(outhitting his peers by many yards while driving it straight) why do you deny him the chance to improve as Hogan did.
he's already miles ahead of Hogan at 25.
Maybe Rory's prime is 10 years from now like Hogan's

[cary lichtenstein]

One of the top 5 Saturday and Sunday major golf in 50 years

[Garland Bayley]

again, what would Hogan do if it rained 4 days? quit?

Ben couldn't win or even come close at age 25 on a 30 or so man tour.
He went on to be a great ballstriker in his 30's.
If Rory is already this good-(outhitting his peers by many yards while driving it straight) why do you deny him the chance to improve as Hogan did.
he's already miles ahead of Hogan at 25.
Maybe Rory's prime is 10 years from now like Hogan's

It's the ball (and to a lesser extent, the equipment).

Rory has never had to face playing the ball Ben did. Rory will never have the chance to play the ball Ben did, and develop the skills Ben did.
Rory has his most significant advantage in wet conditions. E.g., Congressional, Liverpool, Valhalla.

Take Rory to a baked out Carnoustie, give him Ben's ball, and tell him to hit Hogan's alley four days in a row. Good Luck with that!

[Jon Wiggett]

Jeff,

don't forget that in Hogan's day many including him did not just play but had club responsibilities, a lot less practice done and they also had it tougher travelling between events. It is clear that Rory is way ahead at 25 but not so clear if he would be if he had the same situation as Hogan. I don't think he is on the same level as Hogan yet in his standard of play but he certainly is capable of getting there.

Jon

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

don't forget that in Hogan's day many including him did not just play but had club responsibilities, a lot less practice done and they also had it tougher travelling between events. It is clear that Rory is way ahead at 25 but not so clear if he would be if he had the same situation as Hogan. I don't think he is on the same level as Hogan yet in his standard of play but he certainly is capable of getting there.

Jon

We've already seen that traveling too much to satisfy his girlfriend seriously hinders his abilities.

[John_Conley]

The three biggest fallacies in golf:
1- big guys have an advantage
2- it's a mental game
3- low scores indicate a 'putting contest'

[Bob_Huntley]

I think that Jeff Warne brings some sense to this thread. I have been a huge fan of Ben Hogan but at twenty-five he would have had to receive shots from Rory. McIlroy  may not hit the long hole at Carnoustie on four successful attempts but does anyone think that his short game is inferior to Hogan?

Bob

[Garland Bayley]

I think that Jeff Warne brings some sense to this thread. I have been a huge fan of Ben Hogan but at twenty-five he would have had to receive shots from Rory. McIlroy  may not hit the long hole at Carnoustie on four successful attempts but does anyone think that his short game is inferior to Hogan?

Bob

Bob,

Rory was brought up to golf in a privileged environment, with instruction. Ben did it all himself from a hard scrabble background. The twenty five year old comparison is not useful in any way IMO.

Rory seems to be a great kid, but I will take Ben as my model any time/any day over Rory.

[jeffwarne]

GJ,
I have great respect for Hogan's career.
Rory has a long way to go to surpass Hogan-no one is suggesting he is close to his career body of work.

But by your criteria he never will, as he will never play the older ball, grow up in poverty, or be relegated to digging it out of the dirt with no formal instruction.
Are we now to grant Tiger the mantle of greatest player ever because he grew up with less priviledge than Nicklaus?

Rory doesn't need to develop the same skills Hogan did to please you.(though I would argue he has or will)
He needs to develop the skills that allow him to shoot the lowest scores on the venues he competes on-same as Hogan.
If that's FLOG or whatever name you want to call what he does, he's got 4 majors and counting.
It's true they were all on soft courses. The way I see it, unless they play under a dome AND GCA freakdom takes over setups(unlikely), he'll have plenty more chances to win on soft venues.
Why develop a game for "baked out Carnoustie" when he would only see that once or twice in his career?

(even if you and I prefer that kind of golf)

[Garland Bayley]

...
Are we now to grant Tiger the mantle of greatest player ever because he grew up with less priviledge than Nicklaus?
...

Tiger given free instruction from a very early age IMO did not grow up with less privilege than Nicklaus.

Rory has now accomplished the Padraig slam (08). Now let's see if he can do the Jack slam (71-72), Ben slam (53), and the Tiger slam (00-01).

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   I think what Mr Bailey is trying to say is he wishes the PGA tour hadn't bought Vahalla and instead a course in Denver, CO or out west were they get less than 2 inches of rain in August.  If he isn't, that is what I am trying to say.  If you select a PGA site in the midwest, play it in September!  I'm just happy that Jkava was happy.  Lets stop the hate.  

[jeffwarne]

Ben,
I wish they'd bought Carnoustie......
or better yet Trump Aberdeen (why ruin Carnoustie)

[Garland Bayley]

I notice that if it weren't for Lee Trevino, we wouldn't even know the term Tiger-slam. It would be the Jack-slam(71-72).

[BHoover]

Jeff,

   I think what Mr Bailey is trying to say is he wishes the PGA tour hadn't bought Vahalla and instead a course in Denver, CO or out west were they get less than 2 inches of rain in August.  If he isn't, that is what I am trying to say.  If you select a PGA site in the midwest, play it in September!  I'm just happy that Jkava was happy.  Lets stop the hate.  

The PGA Tour does not own Valhalla. The Tour owns TPC Sawgrass.

[Garland Bayley]

Brian,

I think he meant bought it as a venue, not purchased it.

All future major championships in the U. S. should be held at Chambers Bay. Time to do some catching up with that GA venue.

[jeffwarne]

I notice that if it weren't for Lee Trevino, we wouldn't even know the term Tiger-slam. It would be the Jack-slam(71-72).

That's because Trevino won the chipping contest

[BHoover]

Brian,

I think he meant bought it as a venue, not purchased it.

All future major championships in the U. S. should be held at Chambers Bay. Time to do some catching up with that GA venue.

Again, the PGA Tour has nothing to do with Valhalla.

[John Kavanaugh]

Brian,

I think he meant bought it as a venue, not purchased it.

All future major championships in the U. S. should be held at Chambers Bay. Time to do some catching up with that GA venue.

Again, the PGA Tour has nothing to do with Valhalla.

Then spell it out for us Karmack. It was my understanding that the PGA owned Valhalla.

[Nigel Islam]

I'll bite John. The PGA of America owns Valhalla. Garland and Ben said the PGA Tour owns it.

[BHoover]

Brian,

I think he meant bought it as a venue, not purchased it.

All future major championships in the U. S. should be held at Chambers Bay. Time to do some catching up with that GA venue.

Again, the PGA Tour has nothing to do with Valhalla.

Then spell it out for us Karmack. It was my understanding that the PGA owned Valhalla.

You do understand that the PGA of America and the PGA Tour are separate organizations, do you not?

And it's Carnac, not Karmack. If you're going to insult me, at least use the correct references.

[BCowan]

Brian,

I think he meant bought it as a venue, not purchased it.

All future major championships in the U. S. should be held at Chambers Bay. Time to do some catching up with that GA venue.

Again, the PGA Tour has nothing to do with Valhalla.

Then spell it out for us Karmack. It was my understanding that the PGA owned Valhalla.

You do understand that the PGA of America and the PGA Tour are separate organizations, do you not?

And it's Carnac, not Karmack. If you're going to insult me, at least use the correct references.

You know what i meant.  Professional Golf Association of America and the other one is the Tim Finchem organization

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