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Mark Pavy

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2014, 08:36:37 PM »
I'm going to pick one as it's the only one I can think of that perfectly fits your criteria.

1st Castle Stuart:

Challenging, because it uses a design feature that is seldom used on an opening hole; the hole's left side being higher than the right side is awkward for the the vast majority of golfers- right handers, plus the large water hazard running down the entire right side.
Fair, because the landing area is wider than it 'feels' and after the daunting tee shot the hole is quite straight forward with plenty of room to the left of the green.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:08:47 PM by Mark Pavy »

Mark Pritchett

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2014, 08:49:34 PM »
Cuscowilla
Long Cove
Peachtree


Peter Pallotta

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2014, 09:00:45 PM »
Because I played one of the courses mentioned, i.e. Crystal Downs, and thought the opening three holes "the most challenging but eminently fair opening holes" I've played, I found myself thinking this:

That I scored on those three holes exactly what a golfer of my skill level should expect to score on those three holes, and that the (better) golfer I played with scored proportionally and commensurately better; and that, while they were indeed three challenging holes, there was not one shot I faced over that span that I thought beyond my skill level our outside of my skill set, nor did any of those three holes rob me (while standing on the tees) of the hope that I could score better than I had any reasonable right to expect -- and so in those two senses the three holes were also eminently fair (as was the course).  

I'd imagine that, over the decades of play there, this has held true for CD -- that a scratch/very good player will be hard pressed to shoot a very good score (i.e. at or better than his handicap), but that an average player will never come off 18 feeling that he's been beaten up.    
Peter

PS Duh - just realized that Pat's asking about the 1st hole on 3 courses, not the first 3 holes on 1 course. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 10:16:15 PM by PPallotta »

Rob Marshall

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2014, 09:58:00 PM »
Oak Hill East
Lahinch
Torrey Pines South
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Scott McWethy

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2014, 10:01:15 PM »
1.  Sand Hills - great opening par five that is very fair but is quite demanding on the shot into the green.  If you don't get the ball past the first third of the green, you might as well wait at the bottom of the hill for your ball to come back to you.  Also, don't go long because chances you'll putt the ball off the front of the green are also pretty good if you don't pay attention.

2.  Chicago Golf Club - although quite lengthy for an opener, the hole is very fair allowing you to run the ball onto the green usually from a lie well below the surface of the green.  Such a beautiful golf hole from the tee.  

3.  Merion (East) - very intimidating tee shot with others watching you hit the ball, plus a sea of bunkers out there.  Such a fun hole but position is everything.  A very fair hole, but first tee jitters make it quite challenging while trying to avoid all the bunkers and deep rough.

I mentioned these three courses because some opening holes you just dread playing.  These are all fun golf holes that create a nice start to a round. JMO.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2014, 11:11:17 PM »
I'm surprised that no one cited Pasatiempo.

Has no one played it ?

Bill_McBride

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2014, 11:24:33 PM »
I'm surprised that no one cited Pasatiempo.

Has no one played it ?

Didn't occur to me because most of the rounds I've played there were back when #1 was a fairly easy par 5.   When the course originally opened the first two holes were 5 pars.   Today you're right, the 4-4-3 start is brutal. 

The Valley Club starts 5-5-4 but the flat bellies play the first as a long par 4.  #2 can be a difficult par with the OB left, tiny green and very steep pitch to the green.  #3 is an all world tough par 4.   In that 4-5-4 configuration, the Valley Club is a difficult start too. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2014, 12:12:48 AM »
Bill,

Into that prevailing wind # 1 and # 2 are really hard and # 3 is all world challenging.

Probably the greatest green complexes I've ever played

Brian Finn

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2014, 12:13:05 AM »
Plainfield
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills

HM...Bethpage Red, Streamsong Red
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

mike_beene

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2014, 12:42:15 AM »
Bel-air, Gullane 1 , Oakmont

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2014, 12:45:27 AM »
How is # 1 at Sand Hills a really challenging hole ?

It's a par 5 that's not excessively long.

jonathan_becker

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2014, 06:13:51 AM »
Plainfield
Canton Brookside
Oakmont

Niall C

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2014, 09:47:46 AM »
Silloth
Forfar
Machrihanish

Niall

BCrosby

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2014, 09:54:37 AM »
Cuscowilla
Long Cove
Peachtree


Good picks.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2014, 02:19:25 PM »
Ballyhack opens with three challenging but fair holes.

All three utilize diagonals (the fairway on #1, the bunkers on #2, and the green on #3), which requires the player to make an aggressive swing at a conservative target.

WW

Pat Burke

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2014, 04:20:55 PM »
CPC   Pretty straight forward, but in no ways easy. 
#1 Kingston Heath    By no means easy, but room off the tee, and run up space to the green

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2014, 10:13:40 PM »

Plainfield
Canton Brookside
Oakmont


Jonathan,

At 340 I don't consider # 2 at Oakmont overwhelmingly difficult.
I'm not saying it's easy, but, I don't think that making a par is inordinatly difficult.



jonathan_becker

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2014, 06:24:18 AM »

Plainfield
Canton Brookside
Oakmont


Jonathan,

At 340 I don't consider # 2 at Oakmont overwhelmingly difficult.
I'm not saying it's easy, but, I don't think that making a par is inordinatly difficult.



Pat, I wasn't sure if you were asking about the opening hole on three different courses or the most challenging opening three holes on one course. Based on the initial responses, I figured it was the former, but I see now you meant the latter.   I recently asked this same question elsewhere, and in my experience, it's Plainfield.  Contending with the jai alai shaped green on the first, the crazy land movement on the second where only part of the green is actually pinnable, then standing on #3 tee with the wind in your face and a water result for the miss that keeps creeping right is my vote for most challenging but fair.

As for #2 at Oakmont, I played it again last month and hit driver just left of the centerline bunker with a front right hole location.  Then from 40 yards I bumped a 9 iron to about 10 feet and lipped out the putt.  Piece of cake par  ;)

Jeff Spittel

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2014, 07:07:58 AM »
Prairie Dunes
Streamsong Red
The Country Club
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Michael Felton

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2014, 08:30:16 AM »
Winged Foot West
Royal St Georges
Pine Valley

Jim Tang

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2014, 09:48:57 AM »
Oakmont - That is one tough drive with OB right and bunkers left.

Royal Aberdeen - Fantastic opener.  The fairway really bottlenecks with bunkers and the green has some unbelievable slope.

Kingsley Club - Love the par 5 first.  The hill is demanding to carry back into the wind.  Taking a line left of the bunker to the lower fairway presents a lot of problems for the second shot.  The elevated nature of the third shot is tricky.

Scott McWethy

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2014, 09:53:08 AM »
How is # 1 at Sand Hills a really challenging hole ?

It's a par 5 that's not excessively long.

Two reasons why.  The wind can make the entire hole challenging although not long.  A cross wind makes it harder to keep the ball in the fairway and in a good spot for your third shot.

Secondly, the third shot is critical.  Although it's usually just a wedge in hand, you have to put the ball on the right spot on that green, which is not an easy task since you're playing so much uphill.  I was out there last week and at least half the guys in our group would bogey the hole because they put it on a bad spot on the green.  Easy to three putt if you're not careful.  If you're really not careful, you'll be chipping from the bottom of the hill.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2014, 10:02:44 AM »

Prairie Dunes
Streamsong Red
The Country Club

Jeff,

Do you really think that the second holes on the Red and TCC are challenging ?

A short par 5 and a short par 4 ?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 10:06:16 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2014, 10:05:34 AM »
Jonathan,  the old Superintendent (Red) used to keep the rough brutal and the greens fast, making Plainfield incredibly challenging.

Rob Curtiss

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Re: What are the three most challenging, but eminently fair, opening holes
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2014, 10:07:11 AM »
I agree with Scott about Sand Hills- it takes a bomb to get over the bunker to the left and if you play it as a 2 shot hole- to play it as a 3 shot hole -  ball placement on the green is critical - we had a front pin placement on one of the days and saw a guy in the group in front of us putt it off the green and have to chip past the hole to try the putt again. The bunker on the right front of the hole could be daunting for some as well.

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