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Bill_McBride

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Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« on: August 02, 2014, 06:34:07 PM »
I really haven't played many and, as I said in the other thread, really liked May River.   The New Course was fun and interesting -- until I played the real thing!

What courses designed by the Nicklaus design firm have you not been crazy about?

I'll start off with Grand Cypress, all three nines, which was from the penal era, very difficult with abrupt features and the then-obligatory ninth and eighteenth holes wrapping around both sides of a big lake.

I also was really unimpressed with what was the Nicklaus Private Course at PGA West.  Four huge man made mounds, each with a green sliced out one side about 20' up and a similar tee on the other side.  Every tee elevated for a downhill shot. 

What else?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 07:54:53 PM »
Greenbrier
Puerto Los Cabos


David Stamm

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Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 07:59:41 PM »
Dove Canyon in Trabuco Canyon, CA. Not good. Not good at all.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 08:08:19 PM »
Old Corkscrew, what a god awful design. Maybe with some work on the greens  it would be good. Until then an overpriced chocolate mess.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 08:17:08 PM »
I've played 3 (maybe 5) Nicklaus courses and I really enjoyed all of them.

Valhalla
Bear Trace Crossville
Riviera Cancun (I was just excited to be playing anywhere)
? Harbour Town
? OSU, Scarlet

Now I will say I am not fond of some of the stuff he did at OSU, particularly #4. Not sure he did much at all at HT.

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 09:42:47 PM »
I've found many of Nicklaus' tracks fun to play, but some of his designs, particularly his older ones, are pretty weak, and that's much of what I feel his reputation is based on. Anyways, I wouldn't play...

Ruby Hill
Coyote Creek, either course
Palmilla

if I didn't have to. I felt like all three were relatively boring.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Andy Troeger

Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 10:09:12 PM »
Ed,
If you disliked Old Corkscrew that much I could send you to a few other Nicklaus designs that are just as hard that you'd probably love  ;)

I wasn't a fan of OSU Scarlet post-renovation. Superstition Mountain Prospector isn't "bad" but also isn't very interesting.

I find a few of his courses are just too brutally hard and lose flow because they never let up. Old Corkscrew is one, but The Concession, Idaho Club, Promontory Nicklaus, and even Scarlet can fall into that category. Don't necessarily hate them, but the fun factor isn't real high for me.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 10:17:34 PM »
Off the top of my head.
Hulalalai
Grand Traverse
Ibis all of 'em
Grand Cypress. All of 'em
Loxahatchee
Desert Mt Apache
Sycamore Hills (mostly because of the dreadful housing proximity)
Reserve at Lake Keowee
Cliffs at Keowee Falls
Daufuskie Melrose

Favorites
I have played about 30 JN courses.  He has some really good ones and some pretty awful ones.
Here are my top ten in no special order.
Muirfield Village
Sherwood CC
Desert Highlands
Desert Mt Chiricahua
Castle Pines GC
Challenge at Manele
Hokulia
Creighton Farms
Sebonack
Dismal River

I find it interesting that he is so divisive. He has a pretty impressive body of work.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:26:42 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 10:26:00 PM »
Nicklaus's early courses were over the top difficult, not fun, etc.

He changed and produced a lot of good courses, he's not the artist or creative talent of a Pete dye, who could take a flat runway and turn it into Whistling Straits, but both the Ritz, now the Trump in Jupiter and The Bears Club are excellent.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 11:31:40 PM »
Nicklaus does have such a wide variety of courses but least favorite has to be The Bear at Grand Traverse.  Overly penal and a design that doesn't really seem to fit or match the natural environment

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 12:32:45 AM »
I was unimpressed with Superstition Mountain. Maybe 1-2 interesting holes there, if I'm generous?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2014, 03:03:11 AM »
I've played / walked about 6 or 7 and the one I liked least was Gut Larchenhof in Germany.

Very minimal elevation change (all there was was constructed) and bunkering that had no visual impact whatsoever (unusual for a Nicklaus course). Just not a very exciting golf course.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2014, 03:37:31 AM »
...least favorite has to be The Bear at Grand Traverse.  Overly penal and a design that doesn't really seem to fit or match the natural environment.

Cha-ching. 

I heard awful stuff about the Governor's Club in Chapel Hill, but I was pleasantly surprised and quite liked the course.  Nicklaus threw in a few zingers which was cool. 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39467.0.html


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2014, 04:09:54 AM »
The redone Australian in Sydney.
Played it in the late 80's.  Freaking dreadful.

Wonder how the recent work is?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2014, 06:08:21 AM »
I've played 3 (maybe 5) Nicklaus courses and I really enjoyed all of them.

Valhalla
Bear Trace Crossville
Riviera Cancun (I was just excited to be playing anywhere)
? Harbour Town
? OSU, Scarlet

Now I will say I am not fond of some of the stuff he did at OSU, particularly #4. Not sure he did much at all at HT.

Well, especially considering that OSU was a Mackenzie original!  Talk about the Mona Lisa mustache thing!

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2014, 10:07:11 AM »
I've played 3 (maybe 5) Nicklaus courses and I really enjoyed all of them.

Valhalla
Bear Trace Crossville
Riviera Cancun (I was just excited to be playing anywhere)
? Harbour Town
? OSU, Scarlet

Now I will say I am not fond of some of the stuff he did at OSU, particularly #4. Not sure he did much at all at HT.

Well, especially considering that OSU was a Mackenzie original!  Talk about the Mona Lisa mustache thing!

Exactly, although the alterations on the other holes were far more subtle than the 4th. He moved the hole green just to make the hole harder. It's not like you can make a par 5 harder for elite college/Web.com players either. And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.

BCowan

Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2014, 10:30:33 AM »
I've played 3 (maybe 5) Nicklaus courses and I really enjoyed all of them.

Valhalla
Bear Trace Crossville
Riviera Cancun (I was just excited to be playing anywhere)
? Harbour Town
? OSU, Scarlet

Now I will say I am not fond of some of the stuff he did at OSU, particularly #4. Not sure he did much at all at HT.

Well, especially considering that OSU was a Mackenzie original!  Talk about the Mona Lisa mustache thing!

Exactly, although the alterations on the other holes were far more subtle than the 4th. He moved the hole green just to make the hole harder. It's not like you can make a par 5 harder for elite college/Web.com players either. And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.

''And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.''

Can you expand on this?  I believe Dr Mac was on site during Construction.  I haven't played post renovation, but to the positives, many trees looked like they were removed on the back nine viewing the Web.com event.   

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2014, 11:19:11 AM »
Grand Cypress, the one with the St Andrews hillocks. Bollocks, more like. Forgettable when not laughable.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2014, 11:39:52 AM »
It seems the majority of Jack's courses are out West, and then South. I have only played the following Nicklaud courses:

CC of the North (OH)
Aston Oaks (OH)
The Bear at Grand Traverse Resort (MI)
Grizzly Course (OH)
Pawley’s Plantation (SC)
OSU Scarlet (OH)

Of these, I only liked the Scarlet Course and all he did was renovate the course. I never played it pre-Nicklaus, but it was still a fun course. The rest I could care less if I ever set foot on again. Aston Oaks may be one of the most poorly designed golf courses I have ever seen. Not sure if Jack came in to fix it, or was the architect from the beginning.

How does Old Works rate???
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 11:42:48 AM by Richard Hetzel »
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2014, 12:29:30 PM »
Wow, in reading about the above, very few of which I am interested in or have played, I am struck by the body of his work.  Millions of dollars of income for the Nicklaus family and his staff.  I am thinking at this point, when Jack goes to the great course in the sky, it seems his design career will be remembered as one which turned a few very nice properties, Murifield Village for example, and a lot of courses that just don't please most golfers.  The number of bad or "they didn't turn out well" courses are numerous.  I too agree that his early designs are often too much and that his later work well be best remembered.  Due to his name, maybe they came too fast and too early for him to settle into a nice niche.
In his defense his real estate development clients were sometimes hoping for some giant posh looking properties.  Also in his defense, his properties seems to be well constructed and the infrastructure holds up well for a long time.  Production houses are hard to turn out good courses on a regular basis.
I think this makes the body of work of Donald Roos even more impressive.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2014, 12:34:56 PM »
Wow, in reading about the above, very few of which I am interested in or have played, I am struck by the body of his work.  Millions of dollars of income for the Nicklaus family and his staff.  I am thinking at this point, when Jack goes to the great course in the sky, it seems his design career will be remembered as one which turned a few very nice properties, Murifield Village for example, and a lot of courses that just don't please most golfers.  The number of bad or "they didn't turn out well" courses are numerous.  I too agree that his early designs are often too much and that his later work well be best remembered.  Due to his name, maybe they came too fast and too early for him to settle into a nice niche.
In his defense his real estate development clients were sometimes hoping for some giant posh looking properties.  Also in his defense, his properties seems to be well constructed and the infrastructure holds up well for a long time.  Production houses are hard to turn out good courses on a regular basis.
I think this makes the body of work of Donald Roos even more impressive.

Given recent posts in a different topic I simply wanted to point out Lynn's use of the word "posh" which is apparently OK in 2014.  ;)

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2014, 12:40:57 PM »
I’m a fan of Old Works.  Fun front nine.  Two really difficult head-scratchers to begin the back, a 650+ yard par 5 into the prevailing wind, and a collection of less interesting holes that make the back much less entertaining than the front.  The black sand (slag) presents a different puzzle until you figure it out.  Perhaps the most interesting thing about Old Works is sociological rather than architectural.  Golf turning a Superfund site into recreation, saving an old dying mining by creating a tourist attraction, an affordable JN signature course, etc.  It’s one of those 7,700 yard monsters with 6 sets of tees, so plenty of options for your game.   

I’ve played it many times on buddy trips to a friend’s cabin on a lovely nearby lake.  Worth playing when in the area, but maybe less so with Rock Creek CC just up the road.  The only other JN course I’ve played was Vista Vallarta in Puerto Vallarta.  It was OK, I think, but can’t be really sure as it was in July and I was dizzy from the heat and humidity.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2014, 03:14:07 PM »
I've played 3 (maybe 5) Nicklaus courses and I really enjoyed all of them.

Valhalla
Bear Trace Crossville
Riviera Cancun (I was just excited to be playing anywhere)
? Harbour Town
? OSU, Scarlet

Now I will say I am not fond of some of the stuff he did at OSU, particularly #4. Not sure he did much at all at HT.

Well, especially considering that OSU was a Mackenzie original!  Talk about the Mona Lisa mustache thing!

Exactly, although the alterations on the other holes were far more subtle than the 4th. He moved the hole green just to make the hole harder. It's not like you can make a par 5 harder for elite college/Web.com players either. And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.

''And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.''

Can you expand on this?  I believe Dr Mac was on site during Construction.  I haven't played post renovation, but to the positives, many trees looked like they were removed on the back nine viewing the Web.com event.   

Mac submitted the plans in 1931, died in 1934, then Maxwell managed the construction which was finished in 1938.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2014, 09:59:28 PM »
I've played 3 (maybe 5) Nicklaus courses and I really enjoyed all of them.

Valhalla
Bear Trace Crossville
Riviera Cancun (I was just excited to be playing anywhere)
? Harbour Town
? OSU, Scarlet

Now I will say I am not fond of some of the stuff he did at OSU, particularly #4. Not sure he did much at all at HT.

Well, especially considering that OSU was a Mackenzie original!  Talk about the Mona Lisa mustache thing!

Exactly, although the alterations on the other holes were far more subtle than the 4th. He moved the hole green just to make the hole harder. It's not like you can make a par 5 harder for elite college/Web.com players either. And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.

''And in fairness OSU had a lot of hands involved in the late 30s that were not Dr. Mac.''

Can you expand on this?  I believe Dr Mac was on site during Construction.  I haven't played post renovation, but to the positives, many trees looked like they were removed on the back nine viewing the Web.com event.   

Mac submitted the plans in 1931, died in 1934, then Maxwell managed the construction which was finished in 1938.

Sven,

   Thank you, i apologize for the oversight. 

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Least Favorite Nicklaus Designed Courses
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2014, 12:44:52 AM »
Really didn't like anything about the original 27 holes at Grand Cypress. I liked the New course better, but it's always played too soft to really give a good impression of a links setup.

Didn't care for the Ritz Carlton course in Jupiter either.

Also not a fan of Great Bear in the Poconos - shoehorned in, unwalkable design.

Didn't love, but didn't hate, Potomac Shores - some nice potential there if they can get the conditioning under control.

Same for the Delaware beach courses - Bayside and Peninsula. I liked Bayside the more of the two.

Applecross CC is decent - I thought he actually used some restraint in this design, which was a welcome sight.

Although probably a rarity on this board, I really enjoyed SouthShore and Reflection Bay in Vegas, especially SouthShore - maybe something about his over the top style works well for that locale.

I thought the Nicklaus course at Bay Creek in Virginia had some great holes - particularly the par 5 third and the par 3 fourth holes.

As many have said, May River very nice and enjoyable to play.

Last and least, the worst Nicklaus course I've played by far has gotta be St. Andrews (NY), which is undoubtedly one of the silliest layouts ever built.
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