[Dave Doxey]

This is not a troll - it's just a question from a non-architect.

How much "design" does Jack personally do on courses that have his name as designer?  I assume that he has "real" course architects on staff that do most of the detailed design, right?  Short of making a few suggestions, is he really involved in the design?

If that's the case, how relevant is the best/worst discussion?

[Carl Rogers]

IMO, JN  & Team has done way too much work with a lot of quality diluted ... think and meditate more ... build less.
I have only played at Bay Creek on the Cape Charles,Virginia on the DELMARVA peninsula once. Despit the eye candy and OK price, a lot of other courses I want to play or re-play.

[Joe Bausch]

My experience with Nicklaus courses is limited.  I did enjoy very much Bayside, a public course in Delaware.  Here are some pics from last fall:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Bayside/

[Martin Toal]

I have played various courses with varying degree of Nicklausness and for the most part have enjoyed them. Some of them are similar to one another, though.

Eldorado (Cabo), played pre-alterations when they still had the par 5 running down to the water and a nice par 4 playing right along and over beach.  I thought it was terrific, great to look at, challenging but enjoyable holes and reasonable variety.

Monte Rei (Portugal). Again, loved this one. In some respects a template high end resort course built in semi-hilly land a bit inland from the ocean, with room for rather expensive properties near but not uncomfortably close.

Montecastillo (Jerez). In some respects similar to Monte Rei, except based around a large hotel/resort. Fun course built on a grand scale. Used for the Euro Tour Volvo Masters (Tour Championship Euro-style) about 10 years ago.

Grand Cypress (Orlando). This one was not nearly so interesting, in fact I barely remember it, except the laughable St Andrews hillocks.

Pinehills (Mass). This is Nicklaus Design rather than  Nicklaus Signature, so I assume the great man didn't visit much. Fun course in nice mature woodland.

Cabo del Sol (Ocean). Very nice, although to be honest I preferred Eldorado.

Palmilla (Cabo). Don't remember this one as well as Eldorado or Cabo del Sol (even though I played them all on the same trip). At the time I remember enjoying it, but presumably less remarkably so.

Also played Reflection Bay (Vegas), La Paloma (Tucson), Hanbury Manor and The Hertfordshire (England), which were OK.

[Greg Tallman]

I have played various courses with varying degree of Nicklausness and for the most part have enjoyed them. Some of them are similar to one another, though.

Eldorado (Cabo), played pre-alterations when they still had the par 5 running down to the water and a nice par 4 playing right along and over beach.  I thought it was terrific, great to look at, challenging but enjoyable holes and reasonable variety.

Monte Rei (Portugal). Again, loved this one. In some respects a template high end resort course built in semi-hilly land a bit inland from the ocean, with room for rather expensive properties near but not uncomfortably close.

Montecastillo (Jerez). In some respects similar to Monte Rei, except based around a large hotel/resort. Fun course built on a grand scale. Used for the Euro Tour Volvo Masters (Tour Championship Euro-style) about 10 years ago.

Grand Cypress (Orlando). This one was not nearly so interesting, in fact I barely remember it, except the laughable St Andrews hillocks.

Pinehills (Mass). This is Nicklaus Design rather than  Nicklaus Signature, so I assume the great man didn't visit much. Fun course in nice mature woodland.

Cabo del Sol (Ocean). Very nice, although to be honest I preferred Eldorado.

Palmilla (Cabo). Don't remember this one as well as Eldorado or Cabo del Sol (even though I played them all on the same trip). At the time I remember enjoying it, but presumably less remarkably so.

Also played Reflection Bay (Vegas), La Paloma (Tucson), Hanbury Manor and The Hertfordshire (England), which were OK.

Interesting take on ED vs. CDS Martin. Even before being affiliated with CDS I always thought the closing holes (17 & 18) were the poor cousins of those at CDS as the land was not quite as good. That said I believe I missed the original 18th green as part of it was washed away in a storm back in the day. The hole you reference, the original 16th was indeed a fun hole and better par 5 than we have at CDS (as of today  ) though some routing issues, introduction of unnatural lakes and traversing the highway on multiple occasions knocked it down a few pegs in my book. Still pretty darn good and quite fun but the lure of 100s of  millions of dollars make oceanfront hole disappear faster than a category 5 hurricane. 

[Ari Techner]

I have played many Nicklaus courses and like most designers his name is on some courses I like and on some courses I do not like.   My favorite of all Nicklaus courses I have played is easily Dismal River White.  My only complaint with the course really is that the routing doesn't exactly "promote" walking.  I've heard it called "unwalkable" but I know one GCAer (built like a marathon runner though he may be) who proved that idea dead wrong during his 100 hole hike last year.   I really liked the course other than that.   I thought it had a good amount of quirk, was very playable and had some spectacular holes.   Of course being set in the best land for golf anywhere in the world doesn't hurt.  I also really liked Muirfield Village and enjoyed Great Waters quite a bit.  Jack is not and never will be one of my favorites (I'll never forget the day when I was a kid and asked my dad where Jack went to college while wearing my Maize and Blue hat with the block M on it) but you have to respect all he has brought to this great game and that includes all the courses he has designed.   

[JWL]

Greg.
'poor cousins'.......     Not as good but hardly 'poor'
the 16th is now the 9th hole and the same hole.   Other than a couple of added bunkers, which changed nothing about the hole, it is still the same par 5.   Whether better than any at CDS, I'll let other decide that for themselves.
Not sure if you were suggesting that some 'unnatural' ponds' and 'multiple highway crossings' were added after the alteration, but neither happened.   There are the same number of 'tunnel' crossings' as there were in the original routing....just different numbers.
Undoubtedly, the connections were  greatly affected for the worse, but as you say, hundreds of millions of dollars, was the trade off.
I was just please that we were able to find 5 new holes in those two valleys.   It wasn't a given that it could happen at all.    Except for the horrible connections (pacified for some by the various 'bars' along the way), the course is quite good if the club keeps the natural vegetation in check.   

[Tom_Doak]

This is not a troll - it's just a question from a non-architect.

How much "design" does Jack personally do on courses that have his name as designer?  I assume that he has "real" course architects on staff that do most of the detailed design, right?  Short of making a few suggestions, is he really involved in the design?

If that's the case, how relevant is the best/worst discussion?

Dave:

There are some Tour pros who have their names on golf courses but are not very involved in the work. 

Jack Nicklaus is not one of those guys.  In fact, he really would like to design them all himself ... the problem is that he was doing so many courses [and so many other things] that he really only had a few days [max] to spend on each design. 

Personally, I think his work would have been better if he'd delegated more, or built fewer courses so that he had more time to spend on them.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg.
'poor cousins'.......     Not as good but hardly 'poor'
the 16th is now the 9th hole and the same hole.   Other than a couple of added bunkers, which changed nothing about the hole, it is still the same par 5.   Whether better than any at CDS, I'll let other decide that for themselves.
Not sure if you were suggesting that some 'unnatural' ponds' and 'multiple highway crossings' were added after the alteration, but neither happened.   There are the same number of 'tunnel' crossings' as there were in the original routing....just different numbers.
Undoubtedly, the connections were  greatly affected for the worse, but as you say, hundreds of millions of dollars, was the trade off.
I was just please that we were able to find 5 new holes in those two valleys.   It wasn't a given that it could happen at all.    Except for the horrible connections (pacified for some by the various 'bars' along the way), the course is quite good if the club keeps the natural vegetation in check.   

Jim, poor is relative to the originals at CDS. All comments were pre redo as given the money proposition simply hVing 18 holes that could be connected by paths would work. Connections and lakes were a couple of things that made ED the lesser of the two by a significant margin in my mind.

[JWL]

Greg
I know that...I just wanted to clarify that no ponds or road crossings were added when we were forced to make the changes, and also that the Par 5 down to the water that everyone seems to enjoy, has not been changed.   Just in case our posts confused anyone.   Cheers

[JMEvensky]

JWL, where do you put Spring Creek Ranch on the list of JN courses you've been involved with?

[JWL]

Mr. Evensky
I happen to be quite fond of Spring Creek Ranch.   It would definitely rank in my top 5-7 that I have been involved with.   
As I read this thread, it is so obvious that there are so many really fine golf courses that JN has designed that they have never heard of or seen, and almost never mentioned on GCA.    Many of the ones that they have seen and critiqued are also the JN courses that I am also less enthralled with.    Strange that I haven't seen one post about Shoal Creek.   Apparently it isn't highly regarded either.

[Greg Tallman]

Mr. Evensky
I happen to be quite fond of Spring Creek Ranch.   It would definitely rank in my top 5-7 that I have been involved with.   
As I read this thread, it is so obvious that there are so many really fine golf courses that JN has designed that they have never heard of or seen, and almost never mentioned on GCA.    Many of the ones that they have seen and critiqued are also the JN courses that I am also less enthralled with.    Strange that I haven't seen one post about Shoal Creek.   Apparently it isn't highly regarded either.

Jim,

I debated putting SC in my 5 but having not seen it a and considering the era in which it was built I didn't.

[JMEvensky]

Mr. Evensky
I happen to be quite fond of Spring Creek Ranch.   It would definitely rank in my top 5-7 that I have been involved with.   
As I read this thread, it is so obvious that there are so many really fine golf courses that JN has designed that they have never heard of or seen, and almost never mentioned on GCA.    Many of the ones that they have seen and critiqued are also the JN courses that I am also less enthralled with.    Strange that I haven't seen one post about Shoal Creek.   Apparently it isn't highly regarded either.

Please forget the Mr. I don't need any more reminders of how old I am.

I was curious about no Shoal Creek discussion also. Must be an anti-southern thing.

If you don't keep up with them, SCR is doing better membership-wise these days. The golf course is in pretty good shape considering the unusual weather we've had here this year.

SCR is always a good draw for Memphis GA or Tennessee GA events. Good players like to play it.

[John Cowden]

I credit my delight with Jack's Dismal River course to its temporal proximity to Jack's exposure to TD in their "joint" Sebonack project..   I'm mostly a west coast guy and haven't yet seen Sebonack, but my TV/photo exposure tells me Jack surely learned a bit from Tom.  

[Jim Nugent]

Jack Nicklaus is not one of those guys.  In fact, he really would like to design them all himself ... the problem is that he was doing so many courses [and so many other things] that he really only had a few days [max] to spend on each design. 

Personally, I think his work would have been better if he'd delegated more, or built fewer courses so that he had more time to spend on them.

And several courses he spent more time on, have gotten much better.  I'm thinking of Dismal White, Cabo Ocean and MV. 

Still would really, really like to see Jack rout a course himself. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jack Nicklaus is not one of those guys.  In fact, he really would like to design them all himself ... the problem is that he was doing so many courses [and so many other things] that he really only had a few days [max] to spend on each design. 

Personally, I think his work would have been better if he'd delegated more, or built fewer courses so that he had more time to spend on them.

And several courses he spent more time on, have gotten much better.  I'm thinking of Dismal White, Cabo Ocean and MV. 

Your info on how much time Jack spent at Dismal River is clearly different than what I've heard.

[Andy Troeger]

1. Muirfield Village
2. Castle Pines
3. Valhalla
4. Mayacama
5. Shoal Creek
6. Sherwood
7. Desert Mtn Renegade
8. Sycamore Hills
9. Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain
10. Desert Highlands

I included Shoal Creek at #5. I like it quite a bit but found it to be a bit over-treed to put higher.

[JWL]

Andy
Not sure when you last saw Shoal Creek, but in the last two years 3,500 trees have been removed.   Several other changes to tees, bunkers and grass hollows have also been made the last two years.   I think in about a month, the course is the best it has ever been.   Nice place.

[Nigel Islam]

Shoal was a pretty early Nicklaus and it doesn't have a rep for being over the top hard does it?

[Phil Lipper]

Part of the reason so many of the the Nicklaus course are so different is only the Nicklaus Signature courses were designed by him. Many of the courses listed here arent signature courses.
I'm playing the new Trump Ferry Point in about 10 days, based on the pictures I'm guessing this might be one of his best.

[Jim Nugent]

Jack Nicklaus is not one of those guys.  In fact, he really would like to design them all himself ... the problem is that he was doing so many courses [and so many other things] that he really only had a few days [max] to spend on each design. 

Personally, I think his work would have been better if he'd delegated more, or built fewer courses so that he had more time to spend on them.

And several courses he spent more time on, have gotten much better.  I'm thinking of Dismal White, Cabo Ocean and MV. 

Your info on how much time Jack spent at Dismal River is clearly different than what I've heard.

I thought he returned several times after opening, to change/soften a number of features. 

[Derek_Duncan]

This is not a troll - it's just a question from a non-architect.

How much "design" does Jack personally do on courses that have his name as designer?  I assume that he has "real" course architects on staff that do most of the detailed design, right?  Short of making a few suggestions, is he really involved in the design?

If that's the case, how relevant is the best/worst discussion?

Dave:

There are some Tour pros who have their names on golf courses but are not very involved in the work. 

Jack Nicklaus is not one of those guys.  In fact, he really would like to design them all himself ... the problem is that he was doing so many courses [and so many other things] that he really only had a few days [max] to spend on each design. 

Personally, I think his work would have been better if he'd delegated more, or built fewer courses so that he had more time to spend on them.

I've heard versions of this from his associates too. Even though he would only visit 3-4 times during construction, they say Nicklaus has a very clear vision of what he wants the holes to look and play like, where hazards are located, etc., and would often change/move things they'd been building once he saw them in person.

I don't know if that qualifies as design, but it qualifies as having a designer's point of view. And being engaged.

[Mark Pritchett]

I really enjoyed Colleton River a lot and would recommend anyone include it in a visit to the Hilton Head area.  When I think about CR along with Shoal Creek and Spring Creek Ranch, it seems Nicklaus excels in Par 5's.  I though all of the 5's at Shoal Creek are really good and I loved the 14th at SCR.  The second at Sycamore Hills is another exceptional par 5.  

Other Nicklaus standouts for me include:

May River
Sebonack
Great Waters-I initially thought this was overrated, but a after a recent visit, realize it is probably underrated.
Champions Retreat-Very solid nine in a cool setting, love the Par 5 fifth.  
Birch River (now Achasta)

[Greg Tallman]

Andy
Not sure when you last saw Shoal Creek, but in the last two years 3,500 trees have been removed.   Several other changes to tees, bunkers and grass hollows have also been made the last two years.   I think in about a month, the course is the best it has ever been.   Nice place.

Hmmmmmm, sounds like someone has been doing a fair bit of work there over the last couple of years.

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