[David Davis]

Curious if anyone has a Top 5 or 10 list of either his best or the ones you would suggest need to be played in order to start to understand and appreciate his work.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

This is a good question but I think it's unanswerable.  Jack has done courses in many different styles, and it's all a matter of choosing the ones you like.  I had a much longer analysis started, but think it better to keep it to myself.

[Richard Hetzel]

I have yet to really get excited about any Nicklaus course I have played. I am sure he has a few good ones however.

[David Davis]

Tom,

I'd still be interested in your thoughts. I asked this for my own GCA education purposes as I'd like to make sure if there are even a few I should really see I do it if and when I'm in the area.

I think I tend to stereotype some of the former top players in terms of the courses they design based on my own experiences. That's possible not fair.

I know of two courses here in NL alone that have been stamped with former top player turned architect names and neither would be worth crossing the street for from a architectural perspective. What's more I know that in both cases said pros literally had no input other than the stamping of the name and the opening of the courses.

If it's not something you'd like to make public, send me a NDA and a PM ;-)...please.

[Mike_Young]

I like Great Waters and May River.  So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

[Adam Clayman]

The two that standout in my experience are 1. The Summit in Colorado and 2. The New Course in Florida. Each for different reasons. But I felt the Summit was his best use of natural terrain, from the few courses I've seen. and, The New was so different, and so much fun, if his design team had created more courses like that, (with better routings) he'd be regarded much higher within these annals.

[Bill_McBride]

I like Great Waters and May River.  So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

Really liked May River a lot.  Great Waters I thought had a few good holes but those back and forth holes on the front were non memorable.  We played GW with friends from Santa Barbara who liked Longshadow a lot more the next day. 

[Don Hyslop]

Not sure how it would rank among all his courses but Bear Mountain in Victoria, British Columbia is rated as his top course in Canada.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHvln-Ucnc4

[Bill_McBride]

Not sure how it would rank among all his courses but Bear Mountain in Victoria, British Columbia is rated as his top course in Canada.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHvln-Ucnc4

We played Victoria Golf Club and Royal Colwood, didn't hear anything at all about Bear Mountain. 

[Andrew Buck]

In my limited anecdotal experience, his courses are all fun enough if conveniently located and not absurdly expensive while traveling, but I've yet to find one I'd specifically travel to play.

[David Davis]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

[Greg Tallman]

Cabo del Sol
Muirfield Village
May River
Dismal River
Mayacama

[Mike_Young]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

I'm not saying JN doesn't have input but I do think his style evolved or changed as his designers changed.  IMHO he probably knows more about the design business than any of the other pros involved but I also think he had to rely heavily on his designer...

[Greg Tallman]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

I'm not saying JN doesn't have input but I do think his style evolved or changed as his designers changed.  IMHO he probably knows more about the design business than any of the other pros involved but I also think he had to rely heavily on his designer...

As does a modern day Tom Doak.

[Mike_Young]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

I'm not saying JN doesn't have input but I do think his style evolved or changed as his designers changed.  IMHO he probably knows more about the design business than any of the other pros involved but I also think he had to rely heavily on his designer...

As does a modern day Tom Doak.

agree

[Tom_Doak]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

I'm not saying JN doesn't have input but I do think his style evolved or changed as his designers changed.  IMHO he probably knows more about the design business than any of the other pros involved but I also think he had to rely heavily on his designer...

As does a modern day Tom Doak.

I'll disagree there.

I've had a bunch of talented associates, and I wouldn't trade the ones I have now for anybody.  I give them a lot of leeway to shape cool stuff, and I rely on them to keep things moving forward productively when I'm away.  And I think I've given them more credit publicly than other designers do ... just look for the names of Jack's associates on the Nicklaus Design web site. 

But, sorry, I don't see my associates as the "designers" of my courses.

It's not like I have ever done 25-30 courses a year.  I've done two or three a year, and spent 25-30 days on each of them, which is plenty of time to play around with every green and okay or change the bunkers.  And we've never done a course where the routing wasn't mostly done by me personally.  So, I'm not calling them "my" designs just because I sign the checks.  If I just intended to turn most of the design work over to my staff, we'd have been doing a lot more projects per year than we have done.

[Greg Tallman]

Tom,

Relax, nobody trying to strip credit from you. Just pointing out that you, like Jack, give some freedom to your guys to express themselves while working within specific parameters.

I assure you Jack doesn't consider his associates as the designer of a specific "signature" course either.

Just wanted to clarify before this devolves into a detailing of hours spent on site which was certainly not the intent. Apologies f it came off that way.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Relax, nobody trying to strip credit from you. Just pointing out that you, like Jack, give some freedom to your guys to express themselves while working within specific parameters.

I assure you Jack doesn't consider his associates as the designer of a specific "signature" course either.

Greg:

Yes, I had the feeling the latter is true.

However, without going into details, I would say our concepts of "freedom" for our associates seem much more different than you suggest.

[astavrides]

Bear's Best (Las Vegas).

Actually I'd rank the ones I played thusly:
Cabo del Sol (Ocean)
El Dorado (Los Cabos)
Sherwood C. C.
Kauii Lagoons Kiele
ocean hammock
Reflection Bay
dismal river
mayacama
pronghorn- nicklaus
bayside
old greenwood
Montreux Golf and Country Club
bear's best
greenbrier - greenbrier
Dove Canyon
great bear
breckenridge
broadmoor mountain
pasadera
PGA West-Nicklaus Resort
Coyote creek-valley (CA)
Coyote Creek-tournament (CA)

[Mike_Young]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

I'm not saying JN doesn't have input but I do think his style evolved or changed as his designers changed.  IMHO he probably knows more about the design business than any of the other pros involved but I also think he had to rely heavily on his designer...

As does a modern day Tom Doak.

I just assumed the key word above was "modern day" and Greg was saying that as one became busier they had  to rely associates more and more.  But I think the JN designer/associates usually brought their style with them while IMHO the TD associate learned his style from working there....JMO

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played about 30 JN courses.  He has some really good ones and some pretty awful ones.
Here are my top ten in no special order.
Muirfield Village
Sherwood CC
Desert Highlands
Desert Mt Chiricahua
Castle Pines GC
Challenge at Manele
Hokulia
Creighton Farms
Sebonack
Dismal River

I find it interesting that he is so divisive. He has a pretty impressive body of work.

[Greg Tallman]

So much of the JN work for me is dependent on the designer.

This is what I'm afraid of I guess. Nicklaus Designed Courses and two of the first comments are like the one above by Mike.

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

I'm not saying JN doesn't have input but I do think his style evolved or changed as his designers changed.  IMHO he probably knows more about the design business than any of the other pros involved but I also think he had to rely heavily on his designer...

As does a modern day Tom Doak.

I just assumed the key word above was "modern day" and Greg was saying that as one became busier they had  to rely associates more and more.  But I think the JN designer/associates usually brought their style with them while IMHO the TD associate learned his style from working there....JMO

I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

[Andy Troeger]

1. Muirfield Village
2. Castle Pines
3. Valhalla
4. Mayacama
5. Shoal Creek
6. Sherwood
7. Desert Mtn Renegade
8. Sycamore Hills
9. Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain
10. Desert Highlands

[Mark Pavy]

I haven't seen a lot of Jack's courses, but I like The Kinloch Club in Taupo, New Zealand. Sir Bob Charles reckons it's the best track in NZ.

See for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXO322R-cEI

[Jim Nugent]

To me Nicklaus Designed courses means, courses that he actually designed.

David, as I understand it, that means zero.  i.e. to my knowledge (and we've discussed this more than once), Jack has never routed a course in his life.  His associates do that, and he then 'edits' what they designed. 

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