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William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with maintenance?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2014, 09:48:56 AM »
I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to get that bored!

LOL, I might if not for some good company  8)
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with maintenance?
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2014, 09:53:45 AM »
I realize TV never tells you the whole story, but from watching this event year after year, the holes just all run together so much. Except for the two water holes and maybe #17 and #18, you never know what hole the player is on until the graphic tells you.

I hate the fact you have 16 holes going due east or west. I read that that predates RTJ and he couldn't really do anything about it.

+1, the original routing is nothing to get excited about, where else does such a routing exist?, LOL Allen Iverson.
It's all about the golf!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2014, 09:56:12 AM »
those shots on 16 and 18 that appeal to some are much like something you would hit at the range as you imagine you are playing the hole   ;)
It's all about the golf!

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2014, 10:39:03 AM »
If most of the trees were cut down, wouldn't the drive the ball in the adjacent fairway danger factor go way up ?
The TV shots at ground level do show more roll to the property than the routing shots from the blimp implies.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2014, 03:56:29 PM »
and now we have "lift clean and place" for the final round of one of the wealthiest events played by the pros, ridiculous  ::)
It's all about the golf!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2014, 04:02:40 PM »
and now we have "lift clean and place" for the final round of one of the wealthiest events played by the pros, ridiculous  ::)

You obviously missed the standing water in the fairways earlier this morning and the 1 hour 17 minute weather delay, then?

I get it, you (and Doak) don't like Firestone. I do, and I'll happily play there regardless of whether you would or not, regardless of its place on the Doak scale (or any other subjective rating) or despite the supposed lack of memorable shots.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:15:14 PM by Brian Hoover »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with maintenance?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2014, 04:11:59 PM »
Tom - you haven't seen the West but you have an opinion of it?  I respect your opinion, but you should limit it to courses that you have at least seen.  

Michael:  What I offered was not an opinion of the West course.  It was a recognition that being compared to a course that is overrated will boost the image of another course, whether it's good or not.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2014, 04:22:21 PM »
LOL, I saw the delay but have not seen any standing water, nor have I "seen" the lift clean and place

looks pretty warm there

very lush looking and playing course no doubt

 8)
It's all about the golf!

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2014, 04:23:20 PM »
LOL, I saw the delay but have not seen any standing water, nor have I "seen" the lift clean and place

looks pretty warm there

very lush looking and playing course no doubt

 8)

There was standing water on the course this morning due to, wait for it, rain! That's not an uncommon occurrence in Ohio in August, unfortunately. Tends to render a golf course soft.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 04:25:05 PM by Brian Hoover »

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2014, 04:27:01 PM »
I've heard of rain.

I actually like rain.  :)

It's all about the golf!

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2014, 06:27:15 PM »
Maybe because I have found my way into the Langunitas a little early and therefore feel expansive, but there is room for this golf course in our game.  It looks like a midwest US course.  It looks like many Chicagoland courses, such as Medinah 3 and Butler.  Not every course can be built on sand. 

There is something to be said for the terrior of a golf course.  Revetted bunkers in the midwest look awful.  We grow trees to a fault.  Firestone is not the best course in America but the membership allows a tournament every year and they deserve some gratitude.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2014, 03:58:25 PM »
Deciduous tree-lined alleys?
You prefer coniferous tree-lined alleys to deciduous?  Why is that?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2014, 04:06:35 PM »
Deciduous tree-lined alleys?
You prefer coniferous tree-lined alleys to deciduous?  Why is that?

thanks for reading, LOL

Only trying to be accurate in my description and I have no preference regarding trees, as they are 90% air, moreso in winter for deciduous.
It's all about the golf!

Mark Jackson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2014, 05:02:11 PM »
I attended the Bridgestone on Thursday and Friday and I certainly wouldn't characterize the course as "overwatered" or "soft" on, at least, those two days. As others have pointed out, the course has received a lot of rain this summer, including leading up to the telecast. Sunday night into Monday morning prior to the tournament, the area received pretty significant rain. It also rained on Wednesday. I think the maintenance did as best as it could do to prepare the course considering the amount of water the received in the few days prior to the tournament. On both Thursday and Friday, the fairways seemed to be firm enough for drives to be running in the areas you would expect them to. As with most PGA events, the greens were receptive, but they were not soft to the point of making large ballmarks.

I can't say the same for Sunday. The area again experienced quite a bit of rain leading up to the final round. I know, playing at my club Sunday (which is about 35 miles from Firestone and received similar amounts of rain), my drives weren't getting any roll.

I agree that some holes on the course could use some tree trimming/clearing, especially the tee shots on 3 and 18 IMHO. However, looking down the fairways, I thought some were pretty generous at least compared to many of the public (as well as private) courses in Ohio. This likely is more a condemnation of courses in my state rather than a complement to Firestone. While Firestone South may not be the most architecturally-interesting course, it has earned its reputation as an enjoyable tournament venue.

Jeff Bergeron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2014, 05:46:14 PM »
Simply said, the answer is a resounding YES! I've played it numerous times and have no desire to go back. I did like the West for fun and interest.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2014, 07:25:25 PM »
If they removed more trees, that would create more interesting recovery shots under, over and around trees. .... reduce rough height.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Michael Marzec

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with maintenance?
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2014, 09:58:04 AM »
They've seen the courses on TV, they've seen the shots and they want to try their hand.

Who out there hasn't hit a chip, pitch or bunker shot worthy of a PGA Tour Pro ?

And, we all want to try to hit those shots if we get the opportunity to play those courses.

Patrick:

What shots, specifically, do you want to hit at Firestone (South) ?

The only shot that comes to mind for me is the pitch over the pond at the 16th ... and that one would rate about 1,000th on my personal list of shots I'd like to try.

I think Firestone (North) and (West) -- I haven't seen the West -- benefit tremendously from the South course being so overrated.

Tom:

A little late to this thread as I was busy at the tournament and not keeping up with GCA. I am surprised you consider the South overrated - not because I enjoy the course (which I do), but because I have never really considered it that highly rated. It makes no lists of 100 greatest courses that I am aware of. It is, however, popular, because people see their golf "heroes" tackle it every year, usually finding it a challenge to break par. And despite that fact, the pros certainly shower it with praise year in and year out.

Does that make it a great course? No. I will give you that the design itself is less than memorable. At times the South seems like it is an endless string of 440-yard, uphill par fours. And I am afraid it has fallen prey to its own popularity -- TV viewers are addicted to the tight fairways, overhanging trees and, of course, the 16th hole. But to me, those are the least things to remember about Firestone. The approaches to 3 and 16 are my least favorite on the course. Perhaps because they capture my ball far more often than should be the case.

What shot do I want to take? The approach to No. 2 after a great drive. To me, there is no better feeling in golf than to stripe a long iron into a well protected, sloping green and come away with a good result. The fact that it is substantially uphill merely adds to the challenge. Or the approach to the 8th green when the pin is up and the course is playing hard and fast. Your eye tells you the green slopes back to front, but experience tells you that you must land the ball short of the green to have any chance of a makeable birdie putt. A yard or two too close and you will be chipping from behind a very long green. And for fun, I'll throw in the drive and approach on No. 9. It's extremely difficult to find the fairway off the tee, and when you do you have (another) long, uphill approach to a well-bunkered green with a false front. And, oh yeah, there's a bunch of railbirds on the deck of the 55th Hole taking bets on whether you can pull it off.

To me, the quality of the course cannot be experienced on TV or even by playing only a round or two. It is experienced by playing it week in and week out, trying to keep your ball to the proper side of a sloping fairway because that is the angle you need to get your approach near the flag. Or in trying to figure out the incredibly subtle greens. (Just ask all the pros who -- despite all their Strackalines and years of experience --  missed short birdie putts while I was watching No. 12 late on Sunday.)

So is Firestone one of the greats? No. It is a challenging course, that from the hybrid or back tees demands you use every club in your bag at some point during the round. Is it overrated? Not really. It's merely popular because we see "the best players in the world" take it on every year. And most years the course holds its own. That's pretty good testament to me.
"Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite. And furthermore, always carry a small snake." - W.C. Fields

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2014, 10:14:38 AM »
Thanks for that Michael. I agree with you regarding Firestone's reputation. It's a well-recognized course and well-respected among the golf fans I talk to, but I rarely hear anyone talk about it as a great course. Instead, they talk about it as a great test for Tour players in a stout but not especially interesting package. If anything, its reputation seems to be "that long course with all the parallel holes between trees."
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with maintenance?
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2014, 02:05:58 PM »
At times the South seems like it is an endless string of 440-yard, uphill par fours.
It is kind of hard to make all of the holes uphill and still get back to the clubhouse, unless it is a 10 story clubhouse cut into a mountain.  The architect must have known my dad who "had to walk 10 miles to school every day, uphill both ways and in 5 ft of snow"

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2014, 02:09:36 PM »
After seeing the aerial of the up and back routing, the first thing that came to mind is how much it would suck in a strong cross breeze.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Michael Marzec

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2014, 07:54:53 PM »
After seeing the aerial of the up and back routing, the first thing that came to mind is how much it would suck in a strong cross breeze.
Jud --

Fortunately the prevailing winds around here are from the southwest. While they will certainly change - and sometimes frequently during a round - they are typically modest breezes, rarely topping 10 mph. In fact, one of my knocks on the wide open West Course is that the wind rarely blows hard enough to make the course the challenge it could be.
"Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite. And furthermore, always carry a small snake." - W.C. Fields