Does Firestone exemplify what is wrong with routing/maintenance?

[William_G]

Monochromatic?
Uniform rough?
Deciduous tree-lined alleys?
Lush, over watered, fertilized and soft?
Over manicured and repetitive?
Crisscross mowing?

Boring    

[BHoover]

I know Firestone is never going to be a GCA favorite but I take issue with the overwatering claim. It typically plays firm and fast. We have had a ridiculous amount of rain here in Ohio. Just last Sunday we had 4 inches of rain in NE Ohio.

The trees do need to be trimmed back, I agree. The rough is ordinarily not as deep and severe as it is during the tournament. But it's not a boring course to play IMO. And the current leaderboard certainly does not suggest a boring tournament.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Anyone who has played there knows how firm it typically plays and the key to the design is subtle... It's the slope in the fairways.  You don't pick up on it during the telecast but you must shape your ball the right way to hold those fairways.  The first is a great example.  Many a player has hit a draw down the middle of what appears to be a fairly level fairway only to find it under the trees on the left.

In addition, the club oozes an appreciation of this great game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Firestone is a PGA Tour course and as such has to prepare accordingly.

Every time I've played there I've enjoyed myself.

I don't find the course repetitive or boring.

I also happen to like the West course

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Well, it is never going to be a GCA darling, I really don't like the 3-9 triplex FW cut, and it does look like a pack of sausages from the overhead view.  However, it does produce some great champions, and the other course on property is pretty good isn't it?

[William_G]

there is no doubt that Tiger likes playing there, but as a limited field event you will always see a seasoned winner, right?

television does no justice to any course

weather is always a factor, and rain does fall in buckets at times, that is natural

I guess for me it's just another controversy in a game with lot's of them

[Anthony_Nysse]

Well, it is never going to be a GCA darling, I really don't like the 3-9 triplex FW cut, and it does look like a pack of sausages from the overhead view.  However, it does produce some great champions, and the other course on property is pretty good isn't it?

Triplexed, yes but cut on 10-4 and 2-8 patterns.

Course looked to be playing plenty firm yesterday, with tees shots rolling out much further than many tour stops, certainly as much  as PH#2

[Matthew Essig]

I can't take anyone seriously when they complain about triplexed 10-4 and 2-8 cut fairways. Is that seriously what we are going to talk about? It is an infinitesimal issue.

[William_G]

the course does not look fun, but looks overdone in a weird way....despite how it may play

[BHoover]

the course does not look fun, but looks overdone in a weird way....despite how it may play

I would suggest you give Firestone a fair chance and play it. Despite the appearance I think it is fun. I'm obviously biased because I grew up watching the tournament and have played the South course a few times. But I always have fun there.

[William_G]

the course does not look fun, but looks overdone in a weird way....despite how it may play

I would suggest you give Firestone a fair chance and play it. Despite the appearance I think it is fun. I'm obviously biased because I grew up watching the tournament and have played the South course a few times. But I always have fun there.

sounds good

[Tim_Weiman]

William:

Many years ago a member took me to play Firestone knowing I was a golf architecture junkie.

He strongly suggested we play the North Course, arguing it was far more fun than the South. I was his guest and naturally went along.

Then, after playing the North, we took a tour of the South. I came away happy he made the recommendation he did. The South seems perfectly fine for tournament play, but I'm thinking most people would enjoy the North more.

Pat:

Haven't seen the West, but folks I know think it was a fine addition to the club.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I can't take anyone seriously when they complain about triplexed 10-4 and 2-8 cut fairways. Is that seriously what we are going to talk about? It is an infinitesimal issue.

Certainly wasn't a complaint on my part. Just a correction. Firestone looks great to me-straight forward in front of the he golfer, nothing burried or tricked up. Let the golfer hit the shot they choose.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I can't take anyone seriously when they complain about triplexed 10-4 and 2-8 cut fairways. Is that seriously what we are going to talk about? It is an infinitesimal issue.

Yeah that was my complaint, but it certainly isn't "infinitesimal."  It IS extraordinarily inefficient.   Tony, how many men/machines do you think it takes to do those cuts this week?  If Firestone chooses to do it that way for a tournament (God, I hope that's not how they do it daily) that is their prerogative.  The problem is, some greens chairman at Bushwood CC is going to see that and say "That's what we should be doing!" and pester their super to do it.  Skipping ahead a bit, pressures increase, fairway widths shrink, playability is diminished, and the "golden age" recedes further into memory.  So I won't agree with "infinitesimal" as maintenance and architecture are symbiotic.  If you choose not to take me seriously then I am fine with it, but please don't ever say you are for reduced inputs and minimalist architecture/maintenance. 

Wow, that turned into quite a rant.  Deep breaths...

[Steve Okula]

I can't take anyone seriously when they complain about triplexed 10-4 and 2-8 cut fairways. Is that seriously what we are going to talk about? It is an infinitesimal issue.

Yeah that was my complaint, but it certainly isn't "infinitesimal."  It IS extraordinarily inefficient.   Tony, how many men/machines do you think it takes to do those cuts this week?  If Firestone chooses to do it that way for a tournament (God, I hope that's not how they do it daily) that is their prerogative.  The problem is, some greens chairman at Bushwood CC is going to see that and say "That's what we should be doing!" and pester their super to do it.  Skipping ahead a bit, pressures increase, fairway widths shrink, playability is diminished, and the "golden age" recedes further into memory. 

It happened to me this year. Nearby Golf National hosted the French Open and triplex striped their fairways and I got people from within my club sending me photos of it saying we should try that.

[Terry Lavin]

I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to get that bored!

[Jason Thurman]

William:

Many years ago a member took me to play Firestone knowing I was a golf architecture junkie.

He strongly suggested we play the North Course, arguing it was far more fun than the South. I was his guest and naturally went along.

Then, after playing the North, we took a tour of the South. I came away happy he made the recommendation he did. The South seems perfectly fine for tournament play, but I'm thinking most people would enjoy the North more.

Pat:

Haven't seen the West, but folks I know think it was a fine addition to the club.

I've never met anyone who has played Firestone that doesn't really like the South course. I've also never met anyone familiar with both who doesn't prefer the North. If the West is as good as Pat suggests, there can't be that many clubs with a better collection of multiple courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim & Jason,

I think Firestone offers you a diversified selection of courses.

South, North and West.

The West has a "sporty", "fun" personality, while the other two courses have their own distinct personality.

Golfers seem to enjoy playing courses that the PGA Tour and the USGA hold their competitions on.

They've seen the courses on TV, they've seen the shots and they want to try their hand.

Who out there hasn't hit a chip, pitch or bunker shot worthy of a PGA Tour Pro ?

Who out there hasn't hit a putt worthy of a PGA Tour Pro ?

And, we all want to try to hit those shots if we get the opportunity to play those courses.

But, I think we shy away from them on a steady diet, and thats where the other courses provide ample challenge and fun.

[Tom_Doak]

They've seen the courses on TV, they've seen the shots and they want to try their hand.

Who out there hasn't hit a chip, pitch or bunker shot worthy of a PGA Tour Pro ?

And, we all want to try to hit those shots if we get the opportunity to play those courses.

Patrick:

What shots, specifically, do you want to hit at Firestone (South) ?

The only shot that comes to mind for me is the pitch over the pond at the 16th ... and that one would rate about 1,000th on my personal list of shots I'd like to try.

I think Firestone (North) and (West) -- I haven't seen the West -- benefit tremendously from the South course being so overrated.

[BHoover]

The tee shot on 18 is something I looked forward to hitting, same thing with the tee shot on 16.

Even if some think it's overrated, I'll still look forward to playing the South course.

[Michael George]

Tom - you haven't seen the West but you have an opinion of it?  I respect your opinion, but you should limit it to courses that you have at least seen.  

Re: Firestone South, I prefer strategic design, but penal design has its place in the game. The game is certainly big enough for both schools.  There are a lot of interesting shots at Firestone South, but I will agree that they are really only for the good player.  They involve being faced with really tough shots and pulling them off.  Some of my favorite shots not mentioned here include approaches on 3, 8 and 13. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

They've seen the courses on TV, they've seen the shots and they want to try their hand.

Who out there hasn't hit a chip, pitch or bunker shot worthy of a PGA Tour Pro ?

And, we all want to try to hit those shots if we get the opportunity to play those courses.

Patrick:

What shots, specifically, do you want to hit at Firestone (South) ?

The only shot that comes to mind for me is the pitch over the pond at the 16th ... and that one would rate about 1,000th on my personal list of shots I'd like to try.

Tom,

There are a number of them.

But, since you mentioned # 16, I'd add that the tee shot is a terrific shot since you're trying to hit a draw/hook into the turbo boost to get you to the bottom of the hill, giving you a shot at going for the green.

I like the shot over the pond as well.

I also love the shot into the 18th green following a good tee shot, especially when the hole is cut toward the back of the green.

I think Firestone (North) and (West) -- I haven't seen the West -- benefit tremendously from the South course being so overrated.

The West is significantly different from the South & North and I actually prefer it because of the fun factor.
It's challenging, but very enjoyable.

[John_Conley]

One year the PGA Tour played the North course and it held up well against their level of play and was praised as a very good course in the eyes of the players.

At least that's my recollection.

[Matthew Rose]

I realize TV never tells you the whole story, but from watching this event year after year, the holes just all run together so much. Except for the two water holes and maybe #17 and #18, you never know what hole the player is on until the graphic tells you.

I hate the fact you have 16 holes going due east or west. I read that that predates RTJ and he couldn't really do anything about it.

[astavrides]

it does look like a pack of sausages from the overhead view.

some years ago Feherty said it looked like Allen Iverson's cornrows from overhead.