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Paul Gray

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Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2014, 10:43:18 AM »
Jack's comment on number of tees: I think he's one short. I think you need Advanced Amateur-member-senior/shorter hitter-beginner/really short hitter.

Agree that the questions are too general to be informative for our liking.

plus a ladies tee   ::)



I think that's the "shorter hitter's tee" which should a color other than red so senior men won't be embarrassed to play there.  I think some combination like blue / white / gold should handle any course, with perhaps a combo set up.

It could if you rolled the ball back.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2014, 10:44:42 AM »
I have played two of Jack's courses. One is La Robinio (not sure on the spelling) which is in northern Italy. Really liked it and after having played it about 10 times it did not lose its appeal. The other was St. Mellion in the south of England late 80's. Horrible course with many holes unplayable in any sense of the word if at all windy and even in still conditions only playable for scratch guys on a good day.

Jack is like most GCAs. Many good, solid ideas and the odd one or two that I don't agree with.

Jon

David Davis

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Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2014, 05:09:12 PM »
Thanks for the comments gentlemen.

I'm admittedly not very knowledgeable about Nicholas Design Courses. Percentage wise most of them are in the US and when I get the chance to travel to the US for golf I'm usually ticking off top 100 courses for better or worse. I'd love to go deep into each state but time and living overseas keeps that from happening.

In fact, off hand I could only name two courses I'd played that were knowingly Nicholas. Dismal River and Brookwater in Brisbane. However, I just found out Brookwater was from Greg Norman so that about says it all.

Upon looking through his website I realize that Pronghorn in Oregon was his and Monte Rei in Portugal was his. I should of known but didn't. I liked the 3 courses I played I guess. Not my favorites but all solid and it's been a long time so don't bother testing me.

Without being certain I seem to have the impression that his best courses are championship caliber courses - I also didn't realize off hand that he'd designed so many courses.

I'd like to know what the essential list, say top 5 of Jack's courses would be that people think I would need to play.

As for the interview, my personal opinion is that not much was said, I really like Jack as a player and a person, one of my favorites and I've never even seen him play live, he was way before my time. I've not prioritized his courses, ie I would not travel just to play one of them so would have to combine them when in the area. (ok, never say never).

Listening to him, a few times I wonder if he is really involved in the designing of his courses or if a team of architects are doing most of it for him and he just puts his stamp of approval on them. Does anyone know this? My assumption has always been the latter. Though I'm not certain. One way or another that doesn't matter except to a few people interested in GCA.

He did say he no longer builds courses for his ego or to build his name, which states that he might have done that in the past (though that's only a maybe, I don't know the truth).

I would of stopped him during the interview most likely to try to get more insight. Perhaps with things like "gimmicks", what are his examples of gimmicks? Island greens or perhaps island greens in the shape of club logos or mascots?

He also mentioned wild gasses, wild bunkers and wildish greens and I wondered what he meant. Several links courses I love came to mind including Pacific Dunes (though I could be way off).

In general I think he was really vague I guess. The way he said he wanted to design now of course everyone likes, playable for average golfers and encouraging to get people in the game yet challenging for the strong golfers. Find me an architect that wouldn't general agree with that statement.
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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2014, 07:44:51 PM »
Paul, I hear a guy espousing many of the same principles that he likely discussed regularly all the way back at Harbour Town when he worked alongside Pete Dye in 1969, colored with the perspective of seeing the real estate boom (and raking in lots of cash from it), and also seeing its after effects. He cares about the game as much as anyone in the world, and it's not surprising to hear him calling for more sustainable architecture. I don't think many people in the 70s, 80s, and 90s knew how unsustainable the golf development boom really was, and it seems rather petty that you would listen to an interview like this and decide that he's full of it as an architect because some of his courses from decades ago don't match what he currently professes to be his philosophy. Your implication that he "doesn't quite have his head wrapped around this architecture thing" is just high school clique nonsense, as is the idea that he sees the minimalists winning and wants to align with them. Minimalism matters to about 800 people on this site. The rest of the golfing public just wants to play good courses, and Nicklaus' design reputation is in no danger for them. He has his name on seven courses in the Golf Digest Top 100. His design quality is second to few and his design reputation is truly second to none. You've been spending too much time on this site if you believe otherwise.

As for Nicklaus' courses, in my experience I've found them extremely playable. As Tom Doak mentioned, his corridors have always been wide. They're often long from the back tees, but I've never played a Nicklaus course without plenty of tees that play less than 6500 yards for the mortals among us. I've shot some big scores on his courses, but not by losing balls on a course with excessive teeth. Instead, I would compare his work to Pete Dye's in the sense that both present difficult shots with ample bailout room for the weaker player, but few players have the discipline to take that easier route presented. In short, he's always built courses that are enjoyable, though I have no doubt that he's focused on that aspect more as he has begun to play more recreational golf and also found his skills eroding somewhat. As for a natural presentation, I suspect you define that differently than he. I've always found his courses to highlight natural features. Even a place like Valhalla, built in the mid-80s, really highlights Floyds Fork and the wonderful terrain on the course. His shaping style has never been minimalistic, but I've never felt like his courses tried to diminish the natural features of the properties they were built upon. Perhaps working at Dismal and Sebonack has made him more cognizant of a minimalist aesthetic. If so, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have his head wrapped around the concept of architecture or that he's conceding to the Doaks and Coores of the world. It just means that he's growing and developing further as an architect, and that growth should really be lauded rather than used to build uninformed criticisms against his earlier work.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2014, 07:59:14 AM »
Jason,

I did not, nor ever have, suggested that Jack Nicklaus was anything other than a good guy with the best interests of golf at heart. The fact that he didn't realise how unsustainable his previous model was, as you quite rightly point out, was an error made by a great number of people. But that of course doesn't deflect from the fact that it was an error.

As for him tapping into minimalism, clearly he's smarter than you as he recognises a trend which has enough legs to extent far beyond 800 people on this site. The fact that you haven't recognised that fact yet simply reflects positively on Nicklaus. He's learning about it and good on him for that. Again, he's smart enough not to stubbornly cling to 80's mantras and that puts him above many around here in my estimation. But let's not pretend that he's in anything other than the student.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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