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Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2014, 03:13:34 PM »


Go to any high school tournament and there are more than a few hitting it 300 plus. Yeah, some are right or left.



This is one aspect that I don't fully understand, and maybe I'm just not remembering correctly.  I played in several AJGA events (early 90's) during high school and ultimately in college.  Maybe my years are messed up or my memory is flawed but at that age, I felt like the better 15 - 17 year olds weren't hitting it as far as the top club players.  Now I feel it's the opposite, the guys who are potentially getting a college scholarship are hitting it much longer than their 35 year old counterparts.  

Did the older equipment require more strength vs flexibility to hit?  

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2014, 03:17:53 PM »

I think 6000-6200 is a more accurate yardage for most 10-15 handicaps. Maybe even less. Preferably even less!

Agreed.  For our member guest all flights play from the 6,300 yard tees.  My dad is turning 60 and carries a single digit handicap, but has lost a lot of distance (he was considered long in his 30's/early 40's).  Anyway, it was eye opening to see just how often he hit hybrids and fairway woods into greens at even that meager distance. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2014, 03:21:18 PM »
... with the third of taking the distance out of the equipment not being one of them.  I just don't think they will, as there is too much money at stake.
...

What money is at stake for reining in the ball? There are patents on the new ball technology, but when they run out, the ball can be reined in with little to no monetary cost. People have to buy new balls, no matter what the performance limitations of the balls are. Even a cheapskate like me likes to put a new ball into play in the few competitions I play in (like this weekend's club championship).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 03:32:01 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2014, 03:29:20 PM »
What happens when McIlroy has a tree hard on the right (fairly close to the tee...he cannot hit it over) that forces him to hit a cut of some sort?

Too bad they've fallen so much out of fashion, or you could be making a very good living writing koans. 


As I'm sure you know, I had to look up Koan.

I'll stubbornly take that as a compliment!

Better than asking for the 75th time what difference it makes what these guys do...

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2014, 03:36:11 PM »

Hate to say it, but the easiest,  most likely solution is to nominate 50-100 courses that are or can be stretched to that length for big tourneys.  Call those TPC,  or PGA Tour courses.  Try to eliminate or downgrade the label "championship course" or reserve that for courses at 7150-7200 minimum back tees yards.


Seriously? You honest think that's a better solution than introducing a ball which allows, say, Sunningdale (that seems to be my example of choice in all of these threads) to be used again? Instead of looking to bring such courses back, we should consign them to museum status for even average players in the next fifty years?

Wow.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2014, 04:28:55 PM »
Just play match play. All that matters then is which side won.

Think about it.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2014, 09:11:55 PM »
... with the third of taking the distance out of the equipment not being one of them.  I just don't think they will, as there is too much money at stake.
...

What money is at stake for reining in the ball? There are patents on the new ball technology, but when they run out, the ball can be reined in with little to no monetary cost. People have to buy new balls, no matter what the performance limitations of the balls are. Even a cheapskate like me likes to put a new ball into play in the few competitions I play in (like this weekend's club championship).


I wonder if you could expand on this a little. Do you know when the existing patents expire? Do the major ball companies like Titleist, Taylor Made, Nike, etc each hold patents for a ball that does not exceed a set of certain standards?

Assuming the answer is yes, then why cant the USGA and the R & A develop a reduced set of standards to be implemented at a point in time in the future. Go ahead and call it Tourney Ball Standards, and let the companies compete within those standards, just as they do now.


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2014, 09:16:14 PM »
Make every course 6,400 tops and throw out the term par.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2014, 09:28:21 PM »

Seriously? You honest think that's a better solution than introducing a ball which allows, say, Sunningdale (that seems to be my example of choice in all of these threads) to be used again? Instead of looking to bring such courses back, we should consign them to museum status for even average players in the next fifty years?

Wow.

Paul,

While Augusta is the obvious choice, it is my opinion, that Sunningdale can turn the tables on golf and create a "Sunningdale Ball". They have the name to do it.

I am now playing a ball marketed by a guy out of his house in New Hampshire, and I really like it:

http://www.thehackersparadise.com/?p=19612#comments

Golf and golfers needs to stop complaining and "de-centralize" the game away from the USGA and R&A. Rather than do a huge renovation, buy some balls and give them to your members.

Golf is the ONLY sport where a competitor brings his/her own ball. It is a flaw in the game.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 09:41:25 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2014, 10:57:26 PM »
Make every course 6,400 tops and throw out the term par.

Actually, no.

The great thing about golf courses is that they are all so different from one another.

We just need to embrace that idea more, and stop wasting time thinking about Tour pros and idiot marketing people telling us that a course needs to be x yards long in order to be accepted.

The other day I told my client at Forest Dunes that I thought I needed to shorten a couple of holes in order to avoid congestion in one part of the course, and that the total yardage might get down to 6700 yards that way, but I really didn't think anybody would care considering the concept for the course.  He said he wasn't worried about the total length, just make it work.  :)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2014, 11:02:42 PM »
Rory seems to be some sort of Spud Webb creature right now.



I actually ran into Spud Webb in a golf pro shop in Charlotte years ago, when we were working on Charlotte Golf Links.  He is a golfer.  I don't think Manute Bol was a golfer, though.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2014, 11:16:51 PM »
... with the third of taking the distance out of the equipment not being one of them.  I just don't think they will, as there is too much money at stake.
...

What money is at stake for reining in the ball? There are patents on the new ball technology, but when they run out, the ball can be reined in with little to no monetary cost. People have to buy new balls, no matter what the performance limitations of the balls are. Even a cheapskate like me likes to put a new ball into play in the few competitions I play in (like this weekend's club championship).


I wonder if you could expand on this a little. Do you know when the existing patents expire? Do the major ball companies like Titleist, Taylor Made, Nike, etc each hold patents for a ball that does not exceed a set of certain standards?

Assuming the answer is yes, then why cant the USGA and the R & A develop a reduced set of standards to be implemented at a point in time in the future. Go ahead and call it Tourney Ball Standards, and let the companies compete within those standards, just as they do now.



It is my understanding that patents last from 14 to 20 years based on their classification. My assumption has been that the ball patents would be for 17 years, but I can't say for sure. There are obviously lawyers on this site that can answer better than a software engineer can. I do know that Callaway and Titleist fought in court over the TopFlite patents on the Strata that would have been issued perhaps in the late 1990s.

The USGA waited until groove patents expired before implementing a groove regulation. What's to say they won't do the same for balls? The have done some public testing of revised performance balls. See Dan Hermann's posts on that matter.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2014, 11:29:57 PM »
I actually ran into Spud Webb in a golf pro shop in Charlotte years ago, when we were working on Charlotte Golf Links.  He is a golfer.  I don't think Manute Bol was a golfer, though.

While I don't doubt it could have been Spud it could have easily been Mugsy Bogues, who still lives in Charlotte post his career with the Hornets and still golfs frequently.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2014, 11:33:57 PM »
I actually ran into Spud Webb in a golf pro shop in Charlotte years ago, when we were working on Charlotte Golf Links.  He is a golfer.  I don't think Manute Bol was a golfer, though.

While I don't doubt it could have been Spud it could have easily been Mugsy Bogues, who still lives in Charlotte post his career with the Hornets and still golfs frequently.


Damn, you are right, it was Muggsy.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2014, 11:48:54 PM »
Alan,

Based on my experience, which includes talking to guys like Illini coach Mike Small, who says most NCAA courses are set up at 7250 yards or so (to protect the bottom half of the field) I would peg it right around there for a "one size fits all but PGA tour stops" kind of course.  Statistically, less than 1% play over 7000 yards, so if you eliminate those from the design equation, about 17% prefer to play at 6800 yards.  I really see that as sort of the max length needed for most clubs and certainly public courses.  Took my son to a grand reopening of a muni remodel this weekend (former college golfer with some length) and he didn't break par at their 6800 yard tees.  Had fun. Not a tournament challenge, but who needs that kind of challenge every day, even at that level?

Paul Gray,

Of course I am serious!  Take out the 1% of us who really love old, traditional courses hosting major tourneys, and then take away the "tournament tough" kind of thinking, and the distance problem is solved.

Don't see Sunningdale or others as purely museum pieces.  Well after their championship hosting years are over, they can still serve what was intended to be their main purpose - members enjoyment, which IMHO is a very honorable task for any course.

Now, if they want to produce their own ball and host their own tournament outside R and A rules, let them do it. I agree that we may have to snub noses at the ruling bodies for golf to survive.  I personally don't see the huge downside of splitting golf rules into competition and recreational levels, with the disparities getting so great.  Let them do that, let foot golf, large cups and whatever else catches on just thrive to the extent that it was meant to (I don't know what that is....market will decide)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2014, 05:05:49 PM »
Jeff,

So, if great golf courses want to host great tournaments they need to do so away from the R&A and USGA. I'm not sure that even Taylormade have the balls to throw that idea into the mix. At least they're prepared to threaten a break away, not a take over.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2014, 07:13:33 PM »
Louis Oosthuizen won today's long drive contest with a tee shot of 340 yards, which is seven yards shorter than Nicklaus winning tee shot in 1963.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2014, 02:03:43 PM »
Louis Oosthuizen won today's long drive contest with a tee shot of 340 yards, which is seven yards shorter than Nicklaus winning tee shot in 1963.

Well, Nicklaus was using those hopped up Tourneys

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2014, 03:21:20 PM »
Louis Oosthuizen won today's long drive contest with a tee shot of 340 yards, which is seven yards shorter than Nicklaus winning tee shot in 1963.

Just goes to show that Jack was the greatest of all time. Not only could he hit it long, he could hit it straight without having the straight flying ball they use today.

Tiger Woods and Rory McIllroy, in your dreams ....
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brent Hutto

Re: Something's really, really wrong around here.
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2014, 03:23:29 PM »
Yeah but put Nicklaus up against Jones with hickory shafts and ol' Bobby would show him a thing or two...

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