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David Ober

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Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« on: July 29, 2014, 10:40:28 AM »
So the trip is over. We played eleven rounds of golf in nine days. If I remember correctly, here are the courses and order we played them:

SCOTLAND:

Carnoustie

St. Andrews Old Course in the morning
Jubilee in the afternoon (36 holes on the second day)

Kingsbarns

The Castle Course

IRELAND:

Waterville

Dooks

Tralee in the morning
Ballybunion in the afternoon

Lahinch

So here are my overall thoughts and my thoughts on each course.

Overall:

Weather: Mid-60's to low 70's each day and with only one day of light rain at The Old Course. We couldn't have asked for better weather, from what I've heard. Wind was also very manageable, with it usually in the 5 to 15 mph range, and never more than that from what I could tell. Truly great conditions.

Course conditions: Near perfect conditions at every course we played. Firm and fast(ish) for the most part (except Lahinch, which played slow due to the South of Ireland Championship being played in the upcoming week. They "greened it up" a bit and were preparing to lower the mowers and get it into tournament shape, so when we played it, it was definitely on the slow side.

Greens: Very true putting surfaces everywhere we went, but very, very slow. Somewhere in the 8 - 9 area on every course we played. Honestly, putting was never a challenge due to the slow green speeds. I played 11 rounds of golf, and I think I may have 3-putted two or three times at the most. That's a shame, because that shouldn't be the case on greens with that much pitch

Tee availability: This was a true shame. We played the "members tees" at every course. That's all anyone would let us play. One of our group was there for the British Senior Open qualifier (he shot 73 in Wales and missed by two shots), and I'm a 0 to +2 index competitive amateur. The other two members of our group were 3 and 5 handicappers. Now playing the back members tees wouldn't have been a problem if they were actually set at the appropriate place on the tees boxes, but on several of the courses, every single tee was well forward of the permanent marker, meaning that we played several of the courses in the 6300 yard range.

I know these courses are wanting to keep up pace of play, but quite frankly, it's a shame to play the courses we played from some of the tees we played at our level. Only at Tralee did we play the course anywhere near where we should have played from (6800ish, probably). We never complained and always played the tees that we were told to play, but several of the courses played very, very short, so I honestly can't comment much on the strategic values of many of the shots, because I was playing from tees that did not suit my ability.

Hospitality: Great hospitality everywhere we went. The Scots were a bit more reserved, but always warmed up after a few minutes. The Irish were open and friendly almost to a man.

Food: I really enjoyed the food in both countries, actually. One thing: Both the Scottish and Irish serve their food HOT. Every meal we had came out piping hot and well prepared. Very nice. I had haggis at The Dunvegan in St. Andrews, and enjoyed it. I also tried black pudding at a nice restaurant in Cupar, which I also enjoyed. It's very intense and flavorful, so a little bit goes a long way.

The courses:

CARNOUSTIE

"The Toughest Links in Golf" was our first course, and I was jetlagged pretty severely. I didn't feel well and didn't play well. Nonetheless, I loved the course. The course can be had for sure, especially from the tees we played and the conditions we played it in (light wind, no rain). It was also one of the easier walks we had, which was nice, as it kind of "eased me into" the rest of courses, some of which are pretty brutal walks for a fat American! Not much that I remember, actually, as I was truly in a fog the entire round. I've never been overseas, and I was unprepared for just how tired and "off" I felt on that first full day in the Isles.

I remember it feeling "tough but fair," and I definitely want another crack at it.

A quick note: When I play golf, I am almost always playing competitively. I'm usually either playing a tournament or playing a match for some type of $$$. Playing golf this way means that I am almost always focused much more on the shot at hand than I am on architecture. The more time I've spent on this site, the more I try to pull myself away from my normal routine in order to appreciate and learn about architecture, but it is difficult.

ST ANDREWS "THE OLD COURSE"

We got in the lottery on Tuesday, and we played The Old Course on Wednesday at 6:50 in the morning. What a treat. The Old Course exceeded my expectations in every way. I was prepared for the course to be a bit of a letdown, but I was wrong. The course was challenging in ways that I did not expect. It helped to have a good caddie for sure, since he would tell me which side of the green to come into, which was key on several holes. Highlights:

Tee shot on 1: Pretty tough to miss that fairway, but what a shot. You're at the home of golf and it's awe-inspiring.

Hell Bunker: I was 2-under and my ball was in the fairway, but I had missed my drive a bit. I had 200 to carry the bunker dead into a 15 mph wind. My caddie told me that I could lay up to the left and leave myself 160 in for my third shot, or I could take on the bunker and leave myself 50 or so yards to a back pin. I elected to take on Hell, and I lost.

I smothered a 4-wood into the top face and it rolled back to where I had no shot. I took an unplayable in the very back of the bunker and dropped to a plugged lie. I barely got my 8-iron over the Lip of Hell, and then was able to get up and down to save a bogey.

The Road Hole. What a tough, tough hole. I pulled my drive barely into the left rough. My caddie told me that we needed to be short and right on our approach. I hit a 4-wood right were he told me to hit it. I was 10 yards short of the green. The pin was cut just over the large swale in the front. I pitched up to 3 feet and made par on the Road Hole!! Woohoo!!

I loved all of the double greens. The scale of the course was perfect. I never felt crowded at all, even with all of the double greens. It's amazing to me that the course has been able to stand the test of time, length-wise (I know that there have been many changes). The walks from green to tee mostly felt manageable and in line with where they should be, but we weren't walking to the Professional tees, which I'm guessing would be quite a trek on many holes.

THE JUBILEE:

Really enjoyed Jubilee much more than I thought I would, based on what I've read here and other places. I liked the funky greens and the "smaller" scale of the course. I really, really liked the 15th hole, a shortish dogleg right with the green up and tucked away with fall-offs on the both sides and the front. GREAT hole, though I butchered it and made double-bogey. The closing holes that played into the wind were tough, as it was blowing a good 15 mph in the later afternoon when we were there. I can't imagine playing several of those holes into a 25 or 35 mph wind!!

KINGSBARNS:

What a place. I was locked in a battle with another player there, so I was even more focused on my game than I normally am, but I just remember that the course fully suited me. Kingsbarns is NOT a difficult course. It was noticeable to me that some of the "teeth" have been removed from the course on a few holes where I could see new mowing patterns in a few "collection" areas that most likely had previously been light to moderate rough. The driving areas were mostly ample. The greens were large and accommodating and since all the greens in both Scotland and Ireland were slow, my low iron and hybrid shots were well-received. The 18th hole, in particular, was a favorite. Love that second shot over the deep ditch in front of the green.

Regarding the slowness of the greens, here's an example of how they make a course so, so much easier to play: On the par-3 8th, the pin was in the lower left "bowl" section of the green. I pushed my tee shot, and ended up above the hole and to the right on the wrong side of the green. Now a miss that bad should, in my opinion, leave me with a putt that I cannot get close, no matter how well I putt it. I hit a good putt and had a tap-in for par. My buddy hit an awful putt, way to firm, from basically the same line as me, and he only knocked the ball by five feet. My "good putt" should have left me with five feet.

Now I know that green speeds are a delicate balance, and I know that golf courses in windy areas need to keep their green speeds slower in case the wind picks up, but very slow greens simply make a course too receptive to mediocre shots. I would have loved to have played Kingsbarns (and all the courses we played, actually) with greens that were a bit faster.

The physical beauty of Kingsbarns was right up there with Tralee for the best visuals on our trip, but I would prefer that it had a bit more quirk and difficulty, I think. Still, an amazing course, and one of the best overall golf experiences I have ever had.
 
THE CASTLE COURSE:

I really want to just forget this course. It was picturesque and there was a nice "rugged beauty" to it, but the green complexes were just silly. Combine that with lots of blind and blind(ish) tee shots, and it was just not in any way a course that I enjoyed. It's amazing that you can have a Tralee and a Kingsbarns that are both modern courses on similar(?) pieces of land, and yet both Tralee and Kingsbarns are loads of fun to play, and Castle is just ... not fun at all. Now, I imagine that The Castle would actually be quite a bit more fun to play on successive rounds, but it's a course for tourists who will mostly be playing it for the first time. Because of that fact, it's a poor design, in my opinion. Too severe. Too tricked up. Too many grassy mounds for no reason.

More to come later on the rest of the courses, and I'll try to post some pictures....





« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 10:46:07 AM by David Ober »

Brad Tufts

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2014, 11:10:57 AM »
Good stuff...looking forward to the rest.

I have previously been annoyed by the tee thing, but have changed by tune (I'm a zero).

1.  It was explained to me very nicely by the starter at North Berwick when I politely inquired about playing the further-back tees.  He said "I'm sorry, but the course is basically public, so we have to save something for the members, do you see?"  I did and it made perfect sense.

2.  I get very card-and-pencil with myself in the US for trying to achieve a score around the course rating.  You can't really submit the UK/Irish scores back home (Dean Knuth rated a bunch of them I know on his website).

3.  I played The Old Course in no wind last time, didn't ask to move back (and sometimes they say yes apparently), and I shot even par from 6300 yards or so.  I failed to shoot 68 or something, or remotely "tear it up."  I played many of the Eastern half of Scotland greats at the last trip, and broke par twice...both short courses to begin with...a wet Lundin and then at Peterhead.  All of my other scores were 74-80...far from ripping it up.  It sounds like you, like me, had your share of links calamities that kept your scores above par, at least some of the time!  There is something to be said for playing the tees where the fairway hazards challenge your distance...but I just don't think it's a huge deal, especially one that merits an awkward conversation with course staff, etc.

4.  Any of these courses could get sudden weather making the playing of the tips to be brutal for you/me and anyone on the course behind the group of Americans!  And what scratch player wants to shoot a 90 at a famous place on vacation even in big rain/wind?

5.  I thought Muirfield did the tee thing the best out of anywhere we went.  Play 6 Open Champ tees, 6 middle/back tees, 6 tees moved up on appropriate holes.  The course played about 6600 yards, and you can say you played some of the same tees as the pros.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 11:23:30 AM »
David, thanks very much for the thoughtful recap and your insights - it sounds like it was a great trip.  I am very much looking forward to your recap on Ireland.  As for the tee issue, that is certainly interesting and can understand why you feel you may have missed out on a little as a result.  I am not sure if the same practice is observed in Ireland, but regardless, this fortunately won't be an issue for me next year as I am only packing my hickories for the 10-day excursion.  Looking forward to your next installment, especially any advice or suggestions for Ireland...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 12:36:28 PM by Chris_Hufnagel »

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2014, 12:05:36 PM »
Not to be a pain in the rear but why can't you post those scores? Kingsbarns had the USGA course ratings in the window of the starters hut. I still have a pic of it somewhere.

All those courses have the information readily available so you can post on GHIN. They did last year so I assume it's still available.

Post those scores!
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Daryl David

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 12:30:37 PM »
Not to also be a pain in the ass, but why even care about posting your score?  How about just playing the course and having fun?  Perhaps a match with your mates?  It's a game, not a statistical exercise. No wonder the Brits and Scots make fun of us with our cards and pencils!

Josh Tarble

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 12:31:58 PM »
David,
Great write up so far...really enjoyed your thoughts.

I'm assuming you still played some sort of match with your group.  Did you think classic links made your matches more interesting than usual?  

Tim Johnson

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 12:37:42 PM »
Great to hear you enjoyed your trip and you played some great courses, curious to hear your thoughts on Waterville.
Too bad you didn't get to "enjoy" a round of golf in true Irish/Scottish weather. As weird as it may sound, to actually play a round with all sideways rain, needing to lean into the wind to actually walk the fairway, it makes for some good memories......granted, you don't want that on every day but it is nice to experience it.

Brent Hutto

Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 12:40:56 PM »
I always enjoy a "scorecard holiday" on my trips to England or Scotland. While it is possible to cobble together some sort of acceptable number for posting, it's a vacation and as far as I'm concerned I'm out of the office and don't have to do a darned thing I don't want to. Including making up silly numbers for the handicap system.

Beside, given the usual courses and conditions I'd imagine posting my 6-8 numbers based on no doubt ridiculously inadequate course and slope approximations would tantamount to sandbagging. I doubt my usual game back home would like having to give me two or three more strokes for a month or more after I return from a trip!

David Ober

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 12:46:43 PM »
I always enjoy a "scorecard holiday" on my trips to England or Scotland. While it is possible to cobble together some sort of acceptable number for posting, it's a vacation and as far as I'm concerned I'm out of the office and don't have to do a darned thing I don't want to. Including making up silly numbers for the handicap system.

Beside, given the usual courses and conditions I'd imagine posting my 6-8 numbers based on no doubt ridiculously inadequate course and slope approximations would tantamount to sandbagging. I doubt my usual game back home would like having to give me two or three more strokes for a month or more after I return from a trip!

I actually did post all of my scores from the courses that had USGA Ratings/Slopes:

The Old Course
Jubilee
Waterville
Kingsbarns

I'm pretty meticulous about keeping my handicap since I regularly play money matches.

David Ober

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 12:51:08 PM »
David,
Great write up so far...really enjoyed your thoughts.

I'm assuming you still played some sort of match with your group.  Did you think classic links made your matches more interesting than usual?  

I think classic links course are more interesting in every way, actually. Classic links is about options and about angles. It's also about quirk and the unexpected. When it's done right, the balance is absolutely the perfect golf experience for me. I love the "where will the ball end up?" nature of great links courses. If you hit a good/great shot, you are almost invariably rewarded. If you hit a mediocre, shot, though, that's where the fun of links golf comes in, in my opinion. I thought the best courses we played balanced that the best. All the great courses we played punished bad shots, the great ones make the mediocre shots "interesting."

In the US, too many of our courses require an over-abundance of one-dimensional shots (i.e., hit it high, to this spot or you're in big trouble). Since I hit a low ball, I don't prefer that kind of golf, for obvious reasons. LOL

Ken Moum

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 01:06:39 PM »
Interesting that you mentioned Haggis at Dunvegan.

I had it there also, and thought it pretty decent.  Then I found out why, the owner most emphatically told me that there was NO organ meat in it.

I've had it three or four other places that use the traditional recipe, and it's more than this liver hater could tolerate.

Not surprised you liked Jubilee.  Pretty much everyone I've talked to who likes it is about scratch.  I've played it twice in a 20+ mph crosswind and hope to never see the place again.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bill_McBride

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 01:13:56 PM »
Interesting that you mentioned Haggis at Dunvegan.

I had it there also, and thought it pretty decent.  Then I found out why, the owner most emphatically told me that there was NO organ meat in it.

I've had it three or four other places that use the traditional recipe, and it's more than this liver hater could tolerate.

Not surprised you liked Jubilee.  Pretty much everyone I've talked to who likes it is about scratch.  I've played it twice in a 20+ mph crosswind and hope to never see the place again.

K

Ken, how would you compare the Jubilee to the New, assuming you've played both?   I haven't played the Jubilee but planning a trip next May.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 02:35:35 PM »

David, very nice, thank you for sharing, looking forward to seeing the photos and reading about the additional parts of your trip.

When, not 'if', when, you return again look out for Open Comps at clubs/courses you're thinking of playing as such comps are played from the back tees. Although some of the elite courses don't have club Opens, many do, and almost all other clubs host them, so some research beforehand my be useful.
atb

Martin Toal

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 03:16:55 PM »
The back tees is an interesting one. I think the more touristy the course, the more likely that is in force. I personally abhor the rule and at my club anyone can play off any tee they like. The only request is that if you are going to play off the blacks you tell the pro shop because it fires across the main walkway to the practice ground!

Still, nice trip. I think if you ever go again, go north. Play Royal Portrush (both courses), Portstewart, Royal County Down and one or two from Ardglass, Castlerock and the Donegal courses near-ish Portrush. Ballyliffin is my top choice (36 holes).

Glad the Irish were friendly, unlike those surly Scots!

Ken Moum

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 03:45:41 PM »
Interesting that you mentioned Haggis at Dunvegan.

I had it there also, and thought it pretty decent.  Then I found out why, the owner most emphatically told me that there was NO organ meat in it.

I've had it three or four other places that use the traditional recipe, and it's more than this liver hater could tolerate.

Not surprised you liked Jubilee.  Pretty much everyone I've talked to who likes it is about scratch.  I've played it twice in a 20+ mph crosswind and hope to never see the place again.

K

Ken, how would you compare the Jubilee to the New, assuming you've played both?   I haven't played the Jubilee but planning a trip next May.

I've only played New once, in 2006.  But we played it back to back with Jubilee, so I do have some recollection.

The thing about Jubilee is that it's sort of squeezed in, width-wise.  And there never seems to be anyplace for a 12-15 handicapper like me to bail out. New doesn't have that feel.  The best indicator is that the locals play New a lot because Jubilee is "too hard."

My wife just walked by and I asked her what she thought, and she said, "If he's a regular golfer, he could just as well play New and Eden, because Jubilee just isn't that much fun."  And she's a straight-hitting 15 index.

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2014, 04:33:08 PM »
I played my first fourball of the year last week - I missed the annual February members fourball compo - it was a match against a US team and very odd when one of them wrote down the scores after each hole. A win with a 2 is worth the same as a win with a 6.
Cave Nil Vino

Brent Hutto

Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 06:29:36 PM »
I played my first fourball of the year last week - I missed the annual February members fourball compo - it was a match against a US team and very odd when one of them wrote down the scores after each hole. A win with a 2 is worth the same as a win with a 6.

Mark,

As I've often said, golfers used to the USGA Handicap System are conditioned to believe that the prime purpose of being on a golf course is to generate a number for the computer. However ones game against ones opponent(s) works out is a fun bonus but you're out there to generate those numbers and account for every stroke correctly!

Bill_McBride

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 10:37:38 PM »
Interesting that you mentioned Haggis at Dunvegan.

I had it there also, and thought it pretty decent.  Then I found out why, the owner most emphatically told me that there was NO organ meat in it.

I've had it three or four other places that use the traditional recipe, and it's more than this liver hater could tolerate.

Not surprised you liked Jubilee.  Pretty much everyone I've talked to who likes it is about scratch.  I've played it twice in a 20+ mph crosswind and hope to never see the place again.

K

Ken, how would you compare the Jubilee to the New, assuming you've played both?   I haven't played the Jubilee but planning a trip next May.

I've only played New once, in 2006.  But we played it back to back with Jubilee, so I do have some recollection.

The thing about Jubilee is that it's sort of squeezed in, width-wise.  And there never seems to be anyplace for a 12-15 handicapper like me to bail out. New doesn't have that feel.  The best indicator is that the locals play New a lot because Jubilee is "too hard."

My wife just walked by and I asked her what she thought, and she said, "If he's a regular golfer, he could just as well play New and Eden, because Jubilee just isn't that much fun."  And she's a straight-hitting 15 index.



This post by you and your wife confirm my ongoing decision to skip the Jubilee!

Steve Wilson

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Re: Scotland/Ireland Trip Course-by-Course Thoughts....
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2014, 12:05:16 AM »
Ah yes, the fifteenth at the Jubilee.  Played there in 2000 in a considerable wind.  I had driven to the center of the fairway and was about 135 yards out.  I recall seeing a gap to my right that marked two separate dunes or a at least a saddle.  The wind was very confusing, as it seemed to be going all directions at once.  I managed to scrabble together enough grass to toss into the air as a wind gauge.  I swore then and swear to this day that the grass went both left and right.

I finally decided on hitting an 8 iron as hard as I could and started it ten to fifteen yards of the green.   As soon as the ball got above the dune
it went dramatically left and ended up at least ten yards left of the green.  A brute under those conditions.  In light winds it probably could be a good  hole.
Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.