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Tom_Doak

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Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2014, 11:48:38 AM »
8)

Hey, there's 1200 tireless volunteers...

from http://www.usga.org/about_usga/leadership/leadership-committees/

USGA LEADERSHIP

The United States Golf Association (USGA) has served as the national governing body of golf since its formation in 1894 by representatives of five American golf clubs. Since then, the USGA has grown to more than 700,000 members, 9,000 member clubs, 1,200 tireless volunteers and a staff of 300, with a leadership team that represents some of the most experienced professionals in the game.


   Executive Committee
The USGA’s 15-member volunteer group that serves as the Association’s executive policy-making board
   Senior Leadership Team
The USGA’s senior management team who direct and oversee the Association’s
day-to-day operations
   Regional Affairs Team
The USGA’s nationwide network of professionals who serve as key liaisons between the Association and State and Regional Golf Associations
   USGA Women's Committee
The 14-member committee that helps conduct the USGA's women's championships

Steve:

I know the USGA still has a lot of volunteers ... in fact, many years ago, I was on one of their committees myself. 

There were many volunteers back then [and probably still today] who believe more should be done on the equipment front.  But there was much less "staff" back then.  The general rule is, the bigger the bureaucracy, the more they control things; and that seems to be the direction of both the USGA and the R & A.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2014, 11:57:08 AM »

It's not the ball that's the problem; it's the drivers!
...


This simply is not true. This has been covered many times on this website. Tom Paul has reported that the USGA says the new ball goes in the neighborhood of 25 yards farther when used by the elite players.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2014, 01:21:34 PM »
jeff's point : I see your point and hope you're wrong.
Should complete tools such as the target consumer you describe playing with drive the bus on decision making?
My point is it's OK if tools like that buy less stuff-I'm more worried about core golfers quitting or playing less as opposed to knuckleheads like that.


The point, in fact, is that golfers have been fleeing the game for several years now, not because the new clubs hit the new balls farther>  Those who are sticking with the game are doing it for precisely those gains in distance.  The economic consequences of the development of these new technologies -- far more expensive equipment, higher real estate costs for land purchases to lengthen courses, higher maintenance costs for the longer and harder courses, increased dues for members of such clubs with lengthened courses, etc. -- have far more to do with the ordinary golfer's flight.  All of this is happening in an environment in which people have been losing buying power for years, potentially high earners among the young have been struggling with college debt, the income inequality has soured many people's taste for a game perceived as a rich man's sport, people having to work too jobs and raise families, leaving them little time or money for expensive, time-intensive recreation.

Bigger and longer are better for very few in the world of golf these days. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2014, 02:29:13 PM »

The point, in fact, is that golfers have been fleeing the game for several years now, not because the new clubs hit the new balls farther>  Those who are sticking with the game are doing it for precisely those gains in distance. ...

Balderdash
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2014, 03:11:39 PM »
Tom,

I respect your position if you can't discuss this on the forum, but I'm curious how you handle when classic courses really want to stretch their length.  I believe you were heavily involved with the Shoreacres work, and there have been a couple reviews that they've created 3 - 4 beastly long par 4's approaching 500 yards.

Is it your philosophy that a few holes approaching 500 yards for a par 4 are good, considering everyone does play with modern equipment.  Will you try and persuade a club not to add the length if possible, but try to do it as tasteful as possible if they just want to push those distances? 

I understand it may not be possible to offer full candor on the subject, but anything you could offer would be interesting, at least to me. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2014, 04:46:17 PM »
Is it your philosophy that a few holes approaching 500 yards for a par 4 are good, considering everyone does play with modern equipment.  Will you try and persuade a club not to add the length if possible, but try to do it as tasteful as possible if they just want to push those distances? 

I understand it may not be possible to offer full candor on the subject, but anything you could offer would be interesting, at least to me. 

Andrew:

To take any specific club out of it, my general goal is to try to have a few holes that are really long, for even the longer hitters -- but not to infect the rest of the holes in the process.  Adding length to a short or medium-length hole is counterproductive.  It makes far less difference for the strong player than it does for the weaker player.

I would prefer not to add length at all, but the better players at clubs almost always insist, so I look for a couple of holes where I can find enough length that they will stop asking for more.

Of course, when I go to an older club, my ideas have to be consistent with the original architect's ideas.  Some architects were more prone to having their par-4's either short or long -- MacKenzie and Pete Dye being two who jump to mind -- while others were more about golfers "using every club in the bag".  It's not so easy to achieve the latter anymore.

Andrew Buck

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Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2014, 04:59:34 PM »
Thanks Tom,

That makes sense. 

Paul Gray

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Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2014, 06:01:26 PM »
My mention of free market was related to club decisions on whether or not to lengthen/change their course.  Regulation is not relevant here.  If a membership wants to chase equipment improvements by toughening the course, so be it.  I would imagine that some clubs will decide to not go that route.  The free market for course changes is controlled by the membership.

Personally, I don't care what score pros achieve on a course.  TV golf and what I play are two different games.  If courses were left alone, pro golf would become a driver-wedge game and lose some of it's viewer appeal.  That might encourage PGA Tour to get behind equipment limitations.


Something else I have been saying for years. Memberships alter courses, not USGA regulations or lack thereof.  You wanna blame someone for lengthened courses, blame owners, members, architects, guys who purchase jacked up equipment...in other words, blame yourself.  Its wonderful to point fingers at blue blazers, but then its always easier to blame someone else for our ills.    

Once folks stop watching the pros and they lose sponsorship, things may change.  Again, the power lies with the consumer.  Besides, what is the point of watching golf if all that you are gonna do is bitch about slow play, the long ball, irons off the tee....do yourself and me a favour, stop watching golf  ;)

Ciao

Sean,

That's akin to telling your dog he should eat quinoa instead of brisket cause it's better for him.

+1

I'll say again:

What happened to the notion that a sport should have a governing body which should be free to make decisions for the greater good of that game which might actually conflict with the ideals of naked consumerism? And when did even suggesting simply that become controversial or quirky or idealistic left wing bullshit?

Have we become so entrenched in supporting a bogus concept of free choice that we're all genuinely under the impression that we're able to exercise any real freedom of choice while Taylormade et al are good enough to spoon feed us a constant bombardment of advertising? Here's a way out there, wacky, crazy left wing notion: maybe, just maybe, a guy just getting into golf for the first time with no real knowledge of the game might just be better looked after by a governing body than a collection of marketing departments, each trying to out bullshit the other.

But let's assume for a minute that we're all wonderfully capable of ignoring all advertising and perfectly capable of deciding to have a game with our boomer driver friends whilst using our hickories. We all still want to be able to compete, yes, compete (pencil and card comments duly noted) on a level playing field and, to a greater or lesser extent, just occasionally pick up £7 for finishing 3rd nett in the Sir Alexander Higginbottom-Braithwaite Memorial Shield. How does that work then without a governing body to create that level playing field?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2014, 07:32:41 PM »
My mention of free market was related to club decisions on whether or not to lengthen/change their course.  Regulation is not relevant here.  If a membership wants to chase equipment improvements by toughening the course, so be it.  I would imagine that some clubs will decide to not go that route.  The free market for course changes is controlled by the membership.

Personally, I don't care what score pros achieve on a course.  TV golf and what I play are two different games.  If courses were left alone, pro golf would become a driver-wedge game and lose some of it's viewer appeal.  That might encourage PGA Tour to get behind equipment limitations.


Something else I have been saying for years. Memberships alter courses, not USGA regulations or lack thereof.  You wanna blame someone for lengthened courses, blame owners, members, architects, guys who purchase jacked up equipment...in other words, blame yourself.  Its wonderful to point fingers at blue blazers, but then its always easier to blame someone else for our ills.    

Once folks stop watching the pros and they lose sponsorship, things may change.  Again, the power lies with the consumer.  Besides, what is the point of watching golf if all that you are gonna do is bitch about slow play, the long ball, irons off the tee....do yourself and me a favour, stop watching golf  ;)

Ciao

Sean,

That's akin to telling your dog he should eat quinoa instead of brisket cause it's better for him.

+1

I'll say again:

What happened to the notion that a sport should have a governing body which should be free to make decisions for the greater good of that game which might actually conflict with the ideals of naked consumerism? And when did even suggesting simply that become controversial or quirky or idealistic left wing bullshit?

Have we become so entrenched in supporting a bogus concept of free choice that we're all genuinely under the impression that we're able to exercise any real freedom of choice while Taylormade et al are good enough to spoon feed us a constant bombardment of advertising? Here's a way out there, wacky, crazy left wing notion: maybe, just maybe, a guy just getting into golf for the first time with no real knowledge of the game might just be better looked after by a governing body than a collection of marketing departments, each trying to out bullshit the other.

But let's assume for a minute that we're all wonderfully capable of ignoring all advertising and perfectly capable of deciding to have a game with our boomer driver friends whilst using our hickories. We all still want to be able to compete, yes, compete (pencil and card comments duly noted) on a level playing field and, to a greater or lesser extent, just occasionally pick up £7 for finishing 3rd nett in the Sir Alexander Higginbottom-Braithwaite Memorial Shield. How does that work then without a governing body to create that level playing field?


Advertising?  Bollocks. Its called reality.  If you wanna stand around sucking your thumb and pointing fingers, do it quietly in a dark corner.  The whining, bitching and moaning has all been heard before.  Do something, anything.  You lot are driving me spare with talk and no action.  I have been on this site for something close to 10 years, yes, its all been heard before.  If you are doing something, fine, I'll listen. If not....I don't have much time for the same ole same ole.  


Ciao
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 07:37:06 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Mike Bowen

Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2014, 07:41:49 PM »
Well said Paul.

And Sean, this is a place for talking, not doing.  It's a discussion group.  ;D

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2014, 07:44:08 PM »
Sean,

Well of course advertising exists. You're right in saying that it's reality. You're simply reiterating another reason for the game to actually be governed by a committed body, rather than advertisers.

Talk of people power is great but it doesn't resolve the point made in my last paragraph in my previous post. You need a central governing body with balls to actually do that.

PS: Thank you, Mike.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2014, 08:04:17 PM »
When the ball has gotten out of hand at least three times in the past, the USGA has put in regulations to rein in the advancements. The last time, they felt they couldn't, because the felt they would bankrupt a ball company. My suspicion is that they thought they would bankrupt TopFlite as it only produced low spin balls.

Therefore, there is very good reason to expect the current ball to be regulated.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2014, 09:08:50 PM »
Well said Paul.

And Sean, this is a place for talking, not doing.  It's a discussion group.  ;D

Well, lets talk about what people are doing  :D

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2014, 10:06:52 PM »


What happened to the notion that a sport should have a governing body which should be free to make decisions for the greater good of that game which might actually conflict with the ideals of naked consumerism? And when did even suggesting simply that become controversial or quirky or idealistic left wing bullshit?



Such governing bodies should not have corporate sponsors or billion dollar TV contracts for their benefit.....otherwise there is conflict ....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2014, 08:07:47 AM »
Mike - You are correct, sir!

The governing bodies should act as non-profits, and live the amateur spirit.

Brent Hutto

Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2014, 09:13:00 AM »
How many participants here playing in competitions that are straight up, no handicapping?

As long as you're playing off a handicap, the playing field is as level as humanly possible. Someone who plays every round with hickory shafted clubs will establish a handicap based on how he plays with hickory shafted clubs. If he enters a competition with his hickories, his handicap will take care of the potential strokes he's giving up by refusing modern equipment.

The number of people who want to play obsolete equipment in unhandicapped scratch tournaments against fields using modern equipment has to be minuscule.

It's fine for some of you guys to for whatever reason refuse to use equipment made in this century. You can have as much fun as any golfer with the latest and greatest. But out of some warped sense of entitlement, you all come online to whinge about how much better the game of golf would be if everyone else were forced to accede to your own antiquarian equipment preferences.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2014, 09:46:51 AM »
This line of thought is why I tend not to like blended tees. They almost always end up taking the back tees for the shorter holes and the shorter tees for the longer holes in order to find a middle aggregate distance. The end result is never as satifying than either of the original set-ups in my experience.


Andrew:

To take any specific club out of it, my general goal is to try to have a few holes that are really long, for even the longer hitters -- but not to infect the rest of the holes in the process.  Adding length to a short or medium-length hole is counterproductive.  It makes far less difference for the strong player than it does for the weaker player.

I would prefer not to add length at all, but the better players at clubs almost always insist, so I look for a couple of holes where I can find enough length that they will stop asking for more.

Of course, when I go to an older club, my ideas have to be consistent with the original architect's ideas.  Some architects were more prone to having their par-4's either short or long -- MacKenzie and Pete Dye being two who jump to mind -- while others were more about golfers "using every club in the bag".  It's not so easy to achieve the latter anymore.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Should the USGA stop the \
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2014, 07:02:56 PM »
Brent,

There's a plan for abusing the system. Play hickories for a handicap then use modern clubs when you fancy taking the money.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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