[ward peyronnin]

Just received my winter notice from the club and it included the following:

"Please find attached 2013/14 Winter League rules.

Work will commence on replacing the 8th green w/c 21st October, as will Phase 1 of the irrigation upgrade. The 11th will be out of play all winter, with the 19th hole replacing the 11th. At the 14th there will be a temporary green for the winter, to give the fine young grasses on the main green an opportunity to rest before the 2014 season. The only other short term disruption will be at the 7th as we re-shape the surround at the green, to make it more playable and less penal for the slightly wayward shot. Finally, the new winter tee at 18 will be a trial, and members should be aware that should the tee prove to be popular, then the long term intention is to cover the burn between the 18th and the 1st on the St. Olaf."

Frank Pont can you comment on these? Hard to tell where they are thinking of replacing the 18th tee other than toward the ocean but i can't see that affecting St Olafs? I never considered 7 green surround overly penal either ?

Perhaps this will smoke our Dr. Gray

[Bill Gayne]

On seven the side green surrounds aren't overly penal as the ball can easily be chipped or putted. What's moderately severe on seven is the false front and the back to front slope.

[Bryan Izatt]

I wonder what they mean by "replacing the 8th green"?  Regrassing?  Reshaping?  Moving the location.  I really like the hole and green and it looked to be in good shape a few weeks ago.

Reshaping the surrounds on the 7th seems a little odd.  It didn't seem all that penal, unless you were left or, maybe long.  Generally it's a relatively short shot in, albeit uphill and therefore semi blind.  Here's a picture from the front of the green.



On 18, maybe they are considering putting the tee to the right of the 17th green.  It would make sense to cover the burn then.  But, it would seem to be in harm's way from shots on St Olaf's #1.

While I was looking at their web site, I saw a link to the Scottish Screen Archives and a really neat film from 1914 of Vardon and Ray playing the course.  There are some good shots of the 3rd, the 8th and the 13th holes.  The golf part starts about half way through the 8 minutes.

http://ssa.nls.uk/film/3007

[Thomas Dai]

This is a really fascinating film that Bryan has provided the link for. Some thoughts -

I reckon that as well as Harry Vardon and Ted Ray, George Duncan is also present, seen walking out of the hotel with HV and also, partially hidden, at the end of the film on the far left side of the four figures. Who is the 4th figure, the one on the right?

Only HV and TR are seen hitting any shots though. HV swings it gracefully whereas TR, as was his reputation, hits with power and fury.

The footage shown of HV/TR chipping/putting is interesting, but which green are they putting on? My initial thought is the 3rd green, but looking again I'm not so sure. The building at the side of the 2nd green/3rd tee is visible in the far distance.

Not sure either which tee the HV playing a tee shot footage is taken at, the tee with sleepers at the side. The tee appears to be parallel to the 1st fairway.

Interesting how much higher the level of the 8th green is in the film than it's present level. This height coincides with the photo of the hole that's published in Dr MacK's later book. (the green was lowered, in the 1980's I recall, following damage following a flash flood).

Notice the railway sleepers reinforcing the left side of the present 16th green with the sand blow-out below.

The views to the right of the 14th tee don't seem to show the huge mound in front of the 13th green, perhaps it's just camera angle.

Fascinating.

All the best.

[Brian_Ewen]

While I was looking at their web site, I saw a link to the Scottish Screen Archives and a really neat film from 1914 of Vardon and Ray playing the course.  There are some good shots of the 3rd, the 8th and the 13th holes.  The golf part starts about half way through the 8 minutes.

http://ssa.nls.uk/film/3007

What a find that is 

Thanks for passing on.

[Anders Rytter]

The false front on 8th looks super cool.

[Frank Pont]

Ward,

I have not been involved with Cruden Bay after I built the 19th hole, which coincided with the unfortunate and premature death of their course manager Hamish, with whom I had a good and respectful working relationship. So I cannot tell you more than what I think could be the reasons of the club and the course manager for making these changes.

Hole 7. Reshaping of the surrounds is probably right of the green. Here one could often have a tough lie, because the existing landforms would not allow for cutting the grass short in this area. So my assumption is they want to get smoother surfaces so they can cut this area at fairway or even better fore green height. But it could be much worse....

Hole 18. The existing tee of 18 was always one of the let downs of the course, looking at the ugly nets of the driving range. My guess is that they will be moving the tee to the right of green 17, which would explain the comment of covering the burn between 18 and 1 of the Olaf course. This change would make the visuals better, but I am not sure it would make the hole better, since I feel it makes the hole both easier and less Simpson like in that the way to play it is clearer. Getting rid of the diving range fence would have also been a very good idea.

Hole 8. This green is not original and used to be much higher before it got washed away in the 80's. I guess they are either going to returf the existing green or raise and reshape the green. No idea what they will use as a base to (re)design the green from

Hole 11. Not sure why this hole is being closed for the winter. Its a Simpson original, I do not hope this is a tentative move to take it out of the main course

Hole 19. They have in the last winter closed the middle bunker of this green, not sure why, I guess they did not understand the role the bunker played in the strategy of the hole  

One of the main reasons I originally got involved at Cruden Bay in 2006 ( I was a member at that time) was to stop the club from doing rather unwise things they would come to severely regret in the future (lengthening 8, rebuilding 16, taking 15 out of the loop). Based on what I read in your winter notice letter it sounds like the club really need some sensible help again....

[David Kelly]

One of the main reasons I originally got involved at Cruden Bay in 2006 ( I was a member at that time) was to stop the club from doing rather unwise things they would come to severely regret in the future (lengthening 8, rebuilding 16, taking 15 out of the loop). Based on what I read in your winter notice letter it sounds like the club really need some sensible help again....

Cold call them, Frank.

[Brian_Ewen]

Maintenance started on the 8th green.

[Thomas Dai]

It would be very nice if the renovated 8th green were to end up similarly contoured to the original green, the one with the wonderful false front/side that was unfortunately damaged during a flood in the 1980's and subsequently repaired but to a slightly different shape.

Here's the original. Photo taken in the early 1920's I believe.

[Niall C]

Thomas

Many thanks for the links to the newsreels. Fabulous stuff.

Agree about that first green possibly being the 3rd in terms of the surrounding landforms/buildings etc. Re the tee, I think that was possibly the old first tee as I think they may have realigned those first few holes several times over the period. Having ahd a quick squint in the Scotsman archives, we can date that game to the 6th June 1914 when Vardon played George Duncan and Ted Ray played Allan Gow in the semi finals. The four of them are shown in the last clip.

Frank

Re the 11th, I've got that one down as a McAndrew design but could be wrong.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Agree about that first green possibly being the 3rd in terms of the surrounding landforms/buildings etc. Re the tee, I think that was possibly the old first tee as I think they may have realigned those first few holes several times over the period. Having ahd a quick squint in the Scotsman archives, we can date that game to the 6th June 1914 when Vardon played George Duncan and Ted Ray played Allan Gow in the semi finals. The four of them are shown in the last clip.

Niall,

I've now viewed the film a couple of times more. I see what you mean about the tee shown possibly being the 1st, although Vardon does seem to be driving towards the direction of the present 8th hole of the St Olaf course. As to the green they're chipping/putting on, I'm starting to have second thoughts about it being the present 3rd green. Something isn't quite right, which may relate to your point about realignment of the first few holes. The dunes behind the chipping/putting players seem much too high to be the dunes left of the present 3rd fairway and the large building in the distance doesn't seem to be aligned as I would have expected.

Well done for establishing that the 4th player involved was Allan Gow.

If someone has a 1914 era course map of Cruden Bay and could post it here it might help to clarify matters.

All the best

[Sean_A]

Frank

I hope the club doesn't alter the 18th tee position.  Its quite a good driving hole as is.  With wind off the left holding that fairway is a fine shot which deserves a big reward.

I do agree there isn't enough space around the 7th green.  To expand the short grass, wouldn't there need to be some sort of shelf lift and flattening?  It seems to me that slope is severe enough that balls will just runaway.

Ciao

[Brian_Ewen]

First dusting of snow yesterday for the NE of Scotland.

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for the photo Brian,

just for a second I thought it was sand but then read the caption. We had quite a bit of snow yesterday but after non stop rain and a good breeze overnight it is all gone.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

With reference to which holes Vardon and Ray were playing in the 1914 film highlighted above, here are some old course maps that have very kindly been sent to me -

Firstly, 1922, with the routing for both the Championship and the St Olaf courses pretty much as now.


Secondly, entitled CB Professional Golf Tournament.

I'm assuming this map is at the time of the the Vardon-Ray-Duncan-Allan Gow 1914 event. Would those more knowledgable than me go along with this assumption? There is no St Olaf course on this map and whilst the back-9 of the Championship seems pretty similar to today, the front-9 is very different.

From the angles it would seem that the single tee shot hit by Vardon in the film was hit from where the 1st tee is sited on this map. I guess the tee shots hit by both Ray and Vardon were also hit from this same tee but with the camera in a different position (maybe it was a 36-hole match or maybe extra shots were hit purely for the benefit of the camera?). I'm wondering if the film of the two players chipping/putting is taken from behind what is the 4th green as located on this map.



Thirdly, entitled Golf Course at Port Erroll. Map from some time before the above.



All the best

[Niall C]

Thomas

I would suggest the second plan predates the 1914 tournament as it doesn't have the present 3rd/4th etc which I think from memory were built before then (1910 ?). Need to check my notes etc. How often do I say that  

Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

New run off area at left of the 7th looking good.

[Frank Pont]

Brian,

thx for the picture, I agree that the run off looks good, but maybe a bit big?

Also what is happening in the back of the picture on hole 15?
There is a big pile of sand there and it looks like the right side of the fairway has been (re)graded?

[Ru Macdonald]

Natural sand has been exposed on 15th bank. #7 is fantastic.

Brian,

thx for the picture, I agree that the run off looks good, but maybe a bit big?

Also what is happening in the back of the picture on hole 15?
There is a big pile of sand there and it looks like the right side of the fairway has been (re)graded?

[Tom_Doak]

Thomas Dai:

Thanks for posting that old photo of the 8th hole.

That's the one I saw in the basement of the Cornell library, that made me seek out Cruden Bay when I went to Scotland in 1982.  It was the only mention of the course I had seen at the time!

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Tom, very kind of you to mention it.

When did you first go to CB and did you look at just the Championship course or did you mange to have a look at the wonderful wee St Olaf as well?

By the way, anyone have an update on the 'new' CB Championship 8th green? Some photos would be nice.

atb

[ward peyronnin]

Thomas

I have said before on this site that anyone going to CB who ignores St. Olaf's is missing a real gem with at least three top notch;
dare I say world class but that is so overused, holes. Great fun.

I wonder the origin of that course? Has it been altered and by whom?

[Thomas Dai]

Ward,

Like you I am a huge fan of the St Olaf course. Even though it's only 9-holes, the St Olaf is in my favourite top-10 links courses, as per the recent thread. Holes 6-7-8 are particularly splendid, indeed 6 and 8 are maybe the best two holes of the full complement of all 27 (28) holes at CB.

I posted above three CB maps from the early 19th Century kindly proved by a friendly knowledgable lurker. The two earliest maps show the Championship course on the land where the St Olaf now is, but the 1922 map shows both courses pretty much as they now are, including the St Olaf holes.

I have said many times on GCA that anyone going to CB and not playing the St Olaf is missing an terrific opportunity. I wish there were some photos of the course somewhere within GCA, although Frank Pont has kindly posted a link to his photos on a separate thread - http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/Scotland/Cruden-Bay/St-Olaf-Course/

Amazingly no photos are even provided on the CB club website - a lost opportunity.

By the way, if you reckon the St Olaf is a gem there are two more linksie 9-holes both of which are in my top-10 links list you ought to visit one day - The Channel at Burnham & Berrow, and The Bann at Castlerock in Northern Ireland

B&BGC have recently added some fabulous photos of The Channel course to the clubs website - see http://burnhamandberrowgolfclub.co.uk/channel-course/1/

and see http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56960.0.html for my photo tour of The Bann.

atb

[Niall C]

Ward

Much of the St Olafs course was originally the new holes for the redesigned course built over the winter of 1920/1921 that were designed by Simpson under the Fowler and Simpson banner. For some reasons they weren't that popular and the old 1st and 2nd were brought back into play for the main course and the current 3rd, 4th and 5th holes were designed/built by McAndrew who was the pro. He also widened the 6th (might have been a new tee can't recall but it was more or less Simpsons hole from previous year).

From memory this is when McAndrew also designed and built what is the current 11th which in turn was made possible by the 10th green getting pushed back and to the right.

Niall

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