Does Oakmont look better on TV without all those trees ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

If any of you have been watching the US Amateur on TV, and have been to Oakmont prior to their tree removal program,
how do you think it looks ?

One of the announcers said that without the trees,
the WIND is more of a factor.

Will this encourage other clubs to embark upon, continue or expand their tree removal programs ?

[Dan Herrmann]

I almost fainted (well, not really) when I saw Oakmont on my TiVo last night.  I've only seen it on TV, but it looked so different than before.

I admit that I used to think that tree removal was not all that necessary.  However, I'm now a die hard convert.

All you need to do is see how GREAT the course looks and plays to understand why judicious tree removal is appropriate and even necessary.

WOW - I'm even tempted to drive there on Saturday (4-5 hour drive) to see it in person

[Darren_Kilfara]

Dan, I was just musing myself that it would be great to attend Oakmont this week. This course should get many more majors than it does, for so many reasons - and it gets a lot already! I think it looked fantastic before the tree removal, and it looks even better now...

Cheers,
Darren

[A_Clay_Man]

The course is making ESPN's coverage look good. That's how good it looks. The announcer commented on how the tree removal allowed him to see the elevation changes of the property whereas before he could not.

I also liked how these guys talk about the greens and how taxing they are on the golfer's emotions, intelligence and overall constitution.

[Evan Fleisher]

Not sure I remember how it looked with all the trees, and cannot comment on the course since I've never been there...but watching the U.S. Am on TV today I think it looks really good.

The openness on most holes gives the course a great look, but can someone comment on the rough and green speeds?  they are talking 4-6 inch rough and 13+ on the stimp...is this the way it was intended to be played?

[Michael Dugger]

I'm wondering what aesthetics have to do with good golf course architecture?

Who cares what Oakmont LOOKS like.  
PIitures and what we see on TV aren't indicative of anything.

[JohnV]

Evan, I believe that is the way Oakmont is intended to be played.  It has always been known as having the fastest greens around and combining that with the rough makes it one of, if not the, hardest test of golf, which is what the  Fownes' intended.

I've spent a fair amount of time out there this week and I think that if you can play good golf, you can score on this course.  If you don't, it will beat you up.  Jerry Courville made 6 birdies today along with 4 bogies in winning his afternoon match 4 and 3.  This morning he shot 77 and still won on the 18th hole.

[MargaretC]

Oakmont is magnificient!  

My husband and I attended portions of stroke play on Monday and Tuesday (Oakmont and the Field Club) and match play yesterday and this morning.  

Oakmont's greens seemed as if they got faster every day.  The match play format certainly helped the pace of play which was abysmal because so many players appeared to be intimidated by the greens.

IMHO, Oakmont's greens have to be among the most challenging in golf, but Oakmont is much more than its greens.  Oakmont is an experience in texture.  Without question, the members have a gem and certainly know how to organize a championship event.  

Hopefully, other courses will pay attention to what Oakmont has done and remove trees.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I'm wondering what aesthetics have to do with good golf course architecture?

Who cares what Oakmont LOOKS like.  
PIitures and what we see on TV aren't indicative of anything.

Are you trying to suggest that aesthetics have nothing to do with good golf course architecture???

[Mark Studer]

For those within driving distance, only the  tees and greens are roped off during the US AM....friday tickets are $10.00 and weekend tickets are only $20.00......AND.... children under 16 are FREE!  Come out and enjoy a great walk  down the fairways of Fownes' masterpiece. Oakmont's ticket office phone  is (412)828-5559......Was that a shameless plug? If you are involved  in the process of studying your course's history or architecture and interested in healthier turf,bring your green chair and superintendent to take a look. As an example,  Beverly officials did  a year ago, and they are on their way. Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

You probably read the title of the thread, and not the text that followed, hence I can see how you misunderstood what was asked.

Mark Studer,

I've heard it said that the Pittsburgh area has a combination of unique soils and climate which allows for terrific greens.

Is this fact or myth ?

The tree removal appears to have had a beneficial effect on the golf course and appears to have opened the course up to good breezes.

[Mark Studer]

Pat , I do not think that  the weather is "unique", but growing poa  in areas with nightime temps in the 60's is a must....cleveland, buffalo, and milwaukee are examples of towns that can cultivate similar turf......maybe it is the fact that Oakmont CC has been around  since 1903 with greens that were rolled  with 500 lb. rollers in the 20's and became the model of the age , at least around championship golf. Plus,  both H C and WC Fownes  must have had some saddistic dark side ,.....watching  well struck golf shots go scooting over the back of #1,3,10, and 12.  As far as the wind is concerned, there is a marked increase in the wind affecting golf shots.  I refereed the Courville/White match this afternoon( while John V was making time with my wife) and  saw some balls  get pushed around like wiffle balls  , especially on the holes into the wind today,  Todd White's second into 7 floated 30 feet left as it descended to the green.  10 years ago the green site was TOTALLY surrounded by pines.  Now the wind swirls and makes slightly miss hit shots flutter around dancing toward bunkers and rough. Mark

[Brad Klein]

Three cheers to Mark Studer, who as green chairman of Oakmont played no small role there in the tree management plan. See my article in Golfweek of Aug. 16 about it.

MDugger misses the point entirely when he dismissively refers to aesthetics and how the course "looks." It's really all about good agronomy (not possible in the shade), firm, fast dry playing surfaces, shot-making angles and width of playing surface, plus textural diferences between closely cropped main turfgrass (tees, fairways, greens) and longish, off-color rough from which escape and recovery are possible - but never easy. Oakmont gets it right.

[TEPaul]

Mark Studer;

Without a scintilla of a doubt---

YOU DA MAN!!!!

How is this week feeling to you--is it pretty  amazing or does this feel like a prep for the Big Show to come?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Studer,

How did you convince your members that you were on the right track and that the extensive tree removal program would be good for the golf course and good the golfers/members ?

[Mark Studer]

Tom...the us am   IS the BIG show.  Oakmont  has recently hosted the west penn am(1999) and the pennsylvania state am last year. The club has a tradition of hosting amateur golf championships and  seeing the US AM here has been tremendous. Look at  the most recent amateur sites ...Pebble in 99, followed by Baltustrol,East Lake, Oakland Hills,Oakmont, then, coming next,Winged Foot, and Merion.  Pat....no changes can occur without MANY people being involved. We were fortunate at Oakmont though, since Bobby Jones played 3 majors here between 1919and 1927, the club had a good supply of what we call "photo documentation" of the course. Great writers were here as well, Grantland Rice and OB Keeler as two of the best.(I admit bias here since Mr. Rice coined the "four horsemen" expression about Notre Dames backfied).

[Mark Studer]

Pat...the other key ingredient for making Oakmont what it is again today is the fact that the course was designed and revised  by HC and WC Fownes continuously from 1903 to 1950 (the time of WC's passing) The club had a 1949  overhead   photo that became "The Fownes Masterplan" Who  deserves credit for the whole thing?.....trust me , the father, son design team who made Oakmont their legacy. The argument was never really about trees or no trees. Did Oakmont want to be a caretaker of this legacy or did they want a redesigned course on the same property. Another HUGE factor at Oakmont is that the putting greens had NEVER been redesigned and "modernized" as some other classics had.The green committee from 1950 to present protected those putting surfaces from change. The members at Oakmont deserve the credit for "getting it" today. They realize that they are custodians of something very special.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mark,
Congratulations on a job extremely well done!  I think the founders of the club would be proud of your team's work in restoring a classic.

Like some folks said, I hope Oakmont serves as a wakeup call to courses overgrown with trees.  

[TEPaul]

From my experiences and the projects I've followed that include significant tree removal programs with restoration projects the situation is really remarkable but ironically always quite consistent.

Going into projects that include significant tree removal some (sometimes large slices of the membership) fight you tooth and nail going into it--it gets intense, personal, antagonistic, adverserial, you name it.

But if you keep it going and do it (of course Oakmont is the Mother of all tree removal programs) you come out the other side and the entrenched opposition seems to vanish into thin air and even some of those most opposed in the beginning end up minimizing what they initially said and endorsing the end result. Often the most adverserial can't even remember where the trees were a week after they're gone.

Although the tree removal at GMGC was miniscule compared to Oakmont I got lucky when one of the most adamant tree preservationist stood up at a large membership meeting and said he demanded that some pine trees on the left of #1 not ever be touched and I was able to click back to the previous slide and tell him they were removed about three months before and for some reason he hadn't even noticed (to general laughter of course).

Then there was the man who cornered me and very sternly told me no trees could come down because his wife's face had to have shade! I told him I'd be happy to go into the pro shop and buy her a big hat!

[Dan Herrmann]

TEPaul - Great post...  I'm almost temped to write a very friendly letter to the board of my old club pointing them to this thread.  

I don't think there's a course that could benefit more from tree removal than good old Coatesville (PA) CC.  It's gotten so bad there that unplayable lies were half-expected due to fear of injury from tree roots.  It's actually one of the reasons I resigned in 2001....  You GAP Match players from Philly know what I mean  

[SPDB]

I'm curious (but not surprised) that Fazio's name hasn't been mentioned in connection with tree removal and restorative work. I'm also curious if anyone knows the extent of Fazio's involvement. From the looks of it, I'd say not much, but that also could be a function of the quality of the work.

[GeoffreyC]

Mark Studer

I simply MUST congratulate you and all the members at Oakmont for setting the bar so very high for other historic clubs to follow. I wish Pine Valley would get a move on their tree program after seeing these results.  Its hopeless however, to think my home course at Yale could follow suit.  

The course looks stunning and it is testing every aspect of these great amateurs' games. There should be some badge, medal or plaque to honor guys like you who respect and maintain the great traditions and venues of the game.  I guess your prize is a great place to play golf all the time.  Kudos again!

[MargaretC]

Mark Studer:

As someone who not only had the pleasure to be at Oakmont portions of Monday thru Thursday this week, but also is not related to you, or any member, I can honestly say that there are not enough superlatives in the english language to describe the "Oakmont experience."

To you comment that "...both H C and WC Fownes must have had some saddistic dark side ,.....watching  well struck golf shots go scooting over the back of #1,3,10, and 12..." I share the "Fownes humor."  There is no question in my mind that HC and WC Fownes truly understood the game of golf.

IMHO, private country clubs reflect the membership.  Oakmont is very comfortable in its "skin" and as a result, they value their legacy and are not motivated to follow trends du jour to seek identity.  Oakmont is genuine.  A quality not seen often enough in individuals and even less among groups.  It was a pleasure to be at Oakmont this week, not only to see a magnificient golf course, but also to experience Oakmont's hospitality.  Every male member with whom we spoke was warm and anxious to share the club's history.

It would be nice to dream that the exposure of the 2003 US Amateur and the 2007 US Open Championship will educate both golfers and those in GCA to think outside the box of runways, fake ponds, cookie cutter bunkers, etc., but true gems aren't copies.  

Many thanks to Oakmont for sharing its gem.

[A_Clay_Man]

Touching on what Evan mentioned:  This is the second week in a row where we've seen the high rough within close proximity of the greens. Is this just the standardized maintenance du'jour?  Oakmont looks remarkably undulated and it seems to me that more of an ideal maintenance meld might exist by allowing some bounce off of the collars into bunkers or onto greens, and immediate surrounds. Was this or is this the way the game should be played on undulating ground? Does the length and closeness of the rough limit the creativity of the player?

P.s. Aren't then the bunkers a better spot to miss? but are rarely found because of the surrounding cabbage?

[MargaretC]

"Clay"

From what we observed, the bunkers were the better spot to miss and I think that surprised many of the golfers.  That said, most of the golfers demonstrated good skills in getting out of those situations only to discover that on their list of challenges, the greens would ultimately be #1.  The variety of challenges at Oakmont are simply delicious!