Pine Valley 9th green - Lost Skylline green?

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Was standing at the back of the 9th green (left one), which for those who have been there, know is perched at the edge of the ridge above the left side of #18 fairway.  This greensite is framed, behind, by at a row of pine and other narrow trunked trees.

My question is, was this ever a skyline green?  It sure seems like it would’ve been.  If so, would it improve the hole to reintroduce this feature?  Are the trees too important for the stability of the hillside to remove?  Does it matter? 

[Jim Franklin]

Wayne -

You should have toured some of the other facilities. There were some nice, really old pictures of the course in the Annex. I do not recall seeing one of #9 showing a skyline green, but I do see your point. I have no idea whether or not the trees need to be there to support the soil, but it would be pretty cool to have a skyline green feature.

[Josh Bills]

Wayne,

I could not find the ninth green, but these four other holes certainly appear to show a course with significantly less trees and some rough and treacherous looking green complexes.  And at least one that looks somewhat skyline in nature.   

[Joe Bausch]

I think this is the 9th hole, near the green, under construction:

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Thanks all!

In terms of the trees, I do recall some rather contentious discussions here (shocker, I know) in the past about the "encroachment" of trees at Pine Valley..  Not necessarily into lines or angles of play, but more so in the covering up... almost devouring... of bunkers and other waste areas on the periphery of play. 

[JESII]

The 9th as a skyline would certainly be incredible. That said, I'm sure Tom Paul will send a note to someone with the details of the decision to "hold the course together" about 90 years ago.

I wonder if there's an engineering technique that could provide the reinforcement of the slope without the trees...

#'s 2 and 17 are other potential skylines, but neither would be as dramatic as #9.

Pat, I disagree with your pending suggestion of #1...

[Tim Martin]

I think this is the 9th hole, near the green, under construction:

What a great photo!!!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

The 9th was a skyline green (left)

David Moriarty posted some great early pictures of it.

Contrary to Jim Sullivan's or Tom Paul's opinion, the Pines behind the green have little to no bearing on "shoring up" the bank behind the green.

Tree roots normally extend out as far as the drip line, or the farthest point from the tree where foliage grows.
Pine trees are not known for having invasive root systems but if the soil is dry roots will go where the water is.
Most roots, other than the primary tap root, grow within six inches of the surface, rarely going to twelve inches below the surface..

Hence, if you wanted to stabilize a bank, especially a steep bank, you wouldn't plant Pine Trees on top of it or into it..

All tree roots will grow towards water. How far they go and how deep depends on the type of soil.
White pine trees can get 100 feet tall with roots only going twenty feet out

If you look at the topography behind the 9th green, the water source wouldn't be to the Northeast, down that steep bank.

Ask yourself, when's the last time you saw an expansive steep bank stabilized by the planting of Pine Trees ?

That's just another Pine Valley myth.


 

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

The 9th wasn't skyline for very long. I remember seeing early pictures and being surprised there were trees (albeit small ones) behind it.

While Patrick is correct that pines have tap roots and therefore not great for erosion, the pines were planted for that purpose. Erosion is also the reason there is Scotch Broom and scrub pine islands in the bunkers/waster areas  - they needed ways to stop the sand washing away. The pines - being evergreen - help breakup/slow the rainfall hitting the sand and therefore help with the erosion. The tree covered areas do not wash while the waste areas still wash badly after heavy rains.

[Ronald Montesano]

Pines destroy the nutrients found in the soil, making it impossible for other trees to grow in that place thereafter, no?

Since it's sand, does it contain many nutrients?

Would another tree grow on that ridge in a stable manner, or would it blow down with a good wind?

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Good point. There are a few other trees scattered around, mainly oaks. This is the pine barrens so pines are native to the area and grow well there. I don't remember ever testing the native soils for nutrients but being predominately sand they can't hold much.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wait, isn't ground cover the best erosion prevention 'device'? aka...grass? Have not heard before of trees being used to prevent erosion. What is the principle behind using trees as opposed to, say, grass?

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark, depth/length and thickness of roots?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 9th wasn't skyline for very long. I remember seeing early pictures and being surprised there were trees (albeit small ones) behind it.

While Patrick is correct that pines have tap roots and therefore not great for erosion, the pines were planted for that purpose.

How do you know that ?
Why would you plant pines at the TOP of the steep bank ?
Early photos show the bank with ample low level stabilizing vegetation.

Erosion is also the reason there is Scotch Broom and scrub pine islands in the bunkers/waster areas  - they needed ways to stop the sand washing away.

Which bunkers have Scotch Broom planted in them to prevent erosion ?

The pines - being evergreen - help breakup/slow the rainfall hitting the sand and therefore help with the erosion.

With a very narrow drip line and shallow root system, pines would be the last trees you'd plant to prevent rain from reaching the sand below the protective umbrella, and to protect and stabilize a steep bank from the top of that bank

The tree covered areas do not wash while the waste areas still wash badly after heavy rains.

You're ignoring the topography behind the 9th green, it flows down, back toward the tee and there is no erosion between the top of the steep bank to the green and back to the tee.   Ground cover, grass and probably grade and grading prevent erosion, not the pines on top of the steep bank. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

By 'erosion' do people mean subsidence? I guess I could see trees used for that purpose.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

So it seems we've established this was a skyline green.   Why did it change?   Were trees planted behind the green on purpose, or did they grow on their own and left to do so for some reason... Either to protect the hillside or to "frame" the approach shot?

[JSlonis]

In the book Crump's Dream that came out last year, there is a copy of a letter Simon Carr wrote to Howard Street referencing Crump's thoughts for many holes. He wrote this in regard to the 9th...

"On this hole, No. 9, as well as on No. 17, he particularly delighted in the sight of the greens being up against the sky-line.  He thought this a delightful feature of great value to the course, and prized its worth accordingly very high."


I'm hoping that sometime soon, we'll see a return to Crump's original vision on those holes, especially on the 9th. It could be a spectacular sight from the approach and would add to the hole in so many ways.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Patrick

How did I know I'd get the green typing....

I was an assistant superintendent at PV for nearly 7 years so have intimate knowledge of how and why things are/were done there. I certainly wasn't there when the trees were planted but I was involved in conversations about how cool it would be to make 9 a skyline green again (along with other random stuff). The answer we got was that the trees were there for erosion control  and they were going no where.

I never said the trees were at the TOP of the bank, just that I saw trees in the background of pictures in the 20s and 30s which indicated to me that those trees either grew or were planted early on and had started appearing on the horizon at the time the pictures were taken. The trees cover the entire slope, although during my time there we removed a number of the lower line of them that overhung the turf on 18.

I'm not disputing that originally there was low lying vegetation on that hill that could, or could not, provide erosion control but I do know that the unstabilized soils at Pine Valley move down hill very quickly when it rains heavy.

As for the scotch broom; I believe quite a bit has been removed but nearly every waste area and a large number of bunkers had it. When Eb Steiniger was superintendent he introduced a lot of this vegetation to help prevent washouts - as relayed to me by old crew members that worked with him.

I'm not stating the pines would be my first choice for erosion control but they do work at PV. I am not, and did not, ignore the topography behind 9 in any of my comments. I know exactly what's back there. As for your comments I am assuming you mean 10 tee as there are no tees behind left 9 green and I helped build the ones behind right 9. There is a ridge back there with overgrown bunkers in it but the entire slope from there continues to 18 fairway. So please clarify?

I know grading, ground cover and grass are the best erosion control methods - I never said anything different. The pines cover the entire bank, not just the top. They are dense and do slow down the rainfall hitting the ground underneath and seem to work in this instance - I'm just stating fact, from seeing it first hand.

When I stated that other areas wash out, I was not just referring to 9. I have spent a lot of time in a backhoe putting sand back where it belongs at pine valley and I know I never had to fix erosion behind 9 or anywhere covered with pines. I have moved a lot of sand in areas that had no cover, whether it be pines, scrub pine, scotch broom, 'native' grasses etc

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

So it seems we've established this was a skyline green.   Why did it change?   Were trees planted behind the green on purpose, or did they grow on their own and left to do so for some reason... Either to protect the hillside or to "frame" the approach shot?

From what I was always told they were planted to prevent washouts. Whether or not they wanted to frame the hole, I've no idea.

[PGertner]

Mr. FitzGerald is correct…..

Pines, native grasses, laurels were all moved onto all areas of PV to hold those nutrient deficient sugar sands. We have all seen the pictures of naked PV during and just after construction. In that state, that site was one or two gullywashers away from it all ending up on the railroad. Plants probably came from the 400+ acres of the property not used for golf. Longtime Supt Mr. Steineger has been credited for establishing thousands of plants in the 1920's and 1930's to hold back soils.

They didn't have time to wait for germination and maturity of grasses….they laid it out in huge sheets to hold back erosion. The pines that were moved….have grown over the years and the results are what we see today. Having worked the property with two and three generations of staff members with many years of service to PV before I arrived, and having seen many 2-3" thunderstorms during my five year tenure, I understand why it looks as it does today.

Architects design, and no one appreciates greatness more than myself…..but after Mr. Crump and others were gone, PV greenkeepers had to live with her everyday….

Patrick Gertner
Potowomut Golf Club
East Greenwich, RI

[Joe Bausch]

I'm hoping that sometime soon, we'll see a return to Crump's original vision on those holes, especially on the 9th. It could be a spectacular sight from the approach and would add to the hole in so many ways.

 

[Dan Herrmann]

Jamie - you should hire some Jersey Guys and stage a tornado drill there one night.  It's amazing how a well-placed chain saw can simulate the effects of a tornado

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

How did I know I'd get the green typing....

I was an assistant superintendent at PV for nearly 7 years so have intimate knowledge of how and why things are/were done there.

NO, you don't, you only know how things were done during your stint, you have no better understanding of how things were done in 1918 or 1926.

I certainly wasn't there when the trees were planted but I was involved in conversations about how cool it would be to make 9 a skyline green again (along with other random stuff). The answer we got was that the trees were there for erosion control  and they were going no where.

Alan,

Several points.

Those conversations were present day conversations and in no way reflective of what occured in 1918 or 1926.

The "answer you got" from whom ?

That's a present day answer in the context of the views of those in charge when you were there and are not in any way reflective of the views of those circa 1918-1926.

Crump himself indicated that the 9th should be a skyline green, just as he conceived of, designed and built the 18th green with a large mound in the middle of it.

I never said the trees were at the TOP of the bank, just that I saw trees in the background of pictures in the 20s and 30s which indicated to me that those trees either grew or were planted early on and had started appearing on the horizon at the time the pictures were taken.
What's the date of those pictures ?

The trees cover the entire slope, although during my time there we removed a number of the lower line of them that overhung the turf on 18.
That's not true.
Trees do not cover the entire steep slope from the 9th green to the 18th fairway.
It wasn't true circa 1918-1926
And it's not true currently.


I'm not disputing that originally there was low lying vegetation on that hill that could, or could not, provide erosion control but I do know that the unstabilized soils at Pine Valley move down hill very quickly when it rains heavy.

I certainly agree with that.
And you can see evidence of the mini-ravines that form in that area and many other areas.
You can even see the effects of rain on the cart path leading up to the 2nd green, and down to the 14th green.
But, it's been raining in Pine Valley since 1912.

But, they didn't plant Pine Trees on the steep slope from behind the 9th green down to the 18th fairway to stabilize that steep bank.
Pine Trees would be one of the last forms of vegetation that you'd plant to stabilize that steep bank.

As for the scotch broom; I believe quite a bit has been removed but nearly every waste area and a large number of bunkers had it. When Eb Steiniger was superintendent he introduced a lot of this vegetation to help prevent washouts - as relayed to me by old crew members that worked with him.

I'd disagree with you for the following reasons.
Alot of that Scotch Broom was planted in bunkers with NO slopes, like # 7 greenside bunker, hence it wasn't for erosion control despite what you were told.

My theory  ?
My theory is that the Scotch Broom was imported from Merion.
We know that a good number of PV members are Members of Merion and that Scotch Broom has existed at Merion for some time.
I think it was just another imported trend that so many clubs have experienced over the years.
Go to the 1963 aerials and tell me where all the Scotch Broom is ?
In 1963, PV had been in play for 45 years.
I know that PV experienced considerable rain in those 45 years and that erosion wasn't a horrendous problem.
And, that the introduction would eradicate the erosion problem if planted in the bunkers.
It's another myth.

I'm not stating the pines would be my first choice for erosion control but they do work at PV.

That's part of the issue isn't it ?
If you were concerned about erosion on that steep bank behind # 9 green, down to # 18 fairway, you wouldn't go planting pines, would you.
You already stated that they wouldn't be your first choice, thus, it's a prudent conclusion that whomever planted those pines didn't do so primarily to control erosion.

I am not, and did not, ignore the topography behind 9 in any of my comments. I know exactly what's back there.

Then you know that that steep bank behind # 9 green, down to # 18 fairway isn't densely populated with Pines.

As for your comments I am assuming you mean 10 tee as there are no tees behind left 9 green and I helped build the ones behind right 9. There is a ridge back there with overgrown bunkers in it but the entire slope from there continues to 18 fairway. So please clarify?

The terrain, from the top of the ridge behind # 9 Green (left) slopes back toward the green/tee on # 9 and not toward the 18th fairway.

I know grading, ground cover and grass are the best erosion control methods - I never said anything different.

The pines cover the entire bank, not just the top. They are dense and do slow down the rainfall hitting the ground underneath and seem to work in this instance - I'm just stating fact, from seeing it first hand.

Upon closer inspection I think you'll find hardwoods, rather than pines at the Top of the ridge and that the entire steep bank leading down to # 18 fairway is not planted with Pines.

On my next visit, if permitted, I'll take pictures,
If I'm not permitted, my short term memory will have to suffice.

When I stated that other areas wash out, I was not just referring to 9. I have spent a lot of time in a backhoe putting sand back where it belongs at pine valley and I know I never had to fix erosion behind 9 or anywhere covered with pines. I have moved a lot of sand in areas that had no cover, whether it be pines, scrub pine, scotch broom, 'native' grasses etc

Alan, in all candor, you'd have one hell of a time getting a backhoe on that steep bank behind # 9.
I'm pretty sure that you'd roll it over and down to the 18th fairway.
And/or that PV, for safety reasons, would never let you attempt that.

No one doubts that erosion of sandy soil is an issue.

The issue is steep bank behind # 9 and the pines that were either planted there or that occured naturally.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Patrick

How did I know I'd get the green typing....

I was an assistant superintendent at PV for nearly 7 years so have intimate knowledge of how and why things are/were done there.

NO, you don't, you only know how things were done during your stint, you have no better understanding of how things were done in 1918 or 1926.

and you do? I don't appreciate that comment. I agree I know what was done there while I was there and since I have a relationship with the PV family I know what has gone on there since I left. I also had the privilege to meet Mr Steiniger a few times and have him relay stories of the good old days to me. When I was there there were a number of employees whose fathers built the place. Their fathers relayed stories to them who relayed the info to me. Ok it's not first hand, but it is the best any of us are going to get, without having lived it. So, I do know a lot more about the inner workings of Pine Valley than most.

I certainly wasn't there when the trees were planted but I was involved in conversations about how cool it would be to make 9 a skyline green again (along with other random stuff). The answer we got was that the trees were there for erosion control  and they were going no where.

Alan,

Several points.

Those conversations were present day conversations and in no way reflective of what occured in 1918 or 1926.

yes they were but please consider my last comment

The "answer you got" from whom ?

I'm not willing to say specifically, but executive management and board members

That's a present day answer in the context of the views of those in charge when you were there and are not in any way reflective of the views of those circa 1918-1926.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm interested to know how you know that this is fact

Crump himself indicated that the 9th should be a skyline green, just as he conceived of, designed and built the 18th green with a large mound in the middle of it.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but as Pat G mentioned, Mr Crump died and the course had to be maintained so stuff evolved

I never said the trees were at the TOP of the bank, just that I saw trees in the background of pictures in the 20s and 30s which indicated to me that those trees either grew or were planted early on and had started appearing on the horizon at the time the pictures were taken.
What's the date of those pictures ?

I don't recall, I've seen many and I don't recall the dates. You can see the tree tops appearing in the picture posted above

The trees cover the entire slope, although during my time there we removed a number of the lower line of them that overhung the turf on 18.
That's not true.
Trees do not cover the entire steep slope from the 9th green to the 18th fairway.
It wasn't true circa 1918-1926
And it's not true currently.


I was concentrating on the big slope to the left of left 9. They are not as dense behind 9 greens but they do provide a dense cover on the steepest / longest part of the slope from left 9 to 18. As the slope shortens towards 10 and 18 tees the amount of trees lessens from left to right to behind right 9. The lowest part of the slope has always been grassed and I know there was quite a number of pines taken out along the bottom row.

I'm not disputing that originally there was low lying vegetation on that hill that could, or could not, provide erosion control but I do know that the unstabilized soils at Pine Valley move down hill very quickly when it rains heavy.

I certainly agree with that.
And you can see evidence of the mini-ravines that form in that area and many other areas.
You can even see the effects of rain on the cart path leading up to the 2nd green, and down to the 14th green.
But, it's been raining in Pine Valley since 1912.

But, they didn't plant Pine Trees on the steep slope from behind the 9th green down to the 18th fairway to stabilize that steep bank.
Pine Trees would be one of the last forms of vegetation that you'd plant to stabilize that steep bank.

Again you're more than welcome to your opinion

As for the scotch broom; I believe quite a bit has been removed but nearly every waste area and a large number of bunkers had it. When Eb Steiniger was superintendent he introduced a lot of this vegetation to help prevent washouts - as relayed to me by old crew members that worked with him.

I'd disagree with you for the following reasons.
Alot of that Scotch Broom was planted in bunkers with NO slopes, like # 7 greenside bunker, hence it wasn't for erosion control despite what you were told.

My theory  ?
My theory is that the Scotch Broom was imported from Merion.
We know that a good number of PV members are Members of Merion and that Scotch Broom has existed at Merion for some time.
I think it was just another imported trend that so many clubs have experienced over the years.
Go to the 1963 aerials and tell me where all the Scotch Broom is ?
In 1963, PV had been in play for 45 years.
I know that PV experienced considerable rain in those 45 years and that erosion wasn't a horrendous problem.
And, that the introduction would eradicate the erosion problem if planted in the bunkers.
It's another myth.

And you know for a fact that erosion was not a horrendous problem during the time you've quoted?

Due to their relationship I'm sure Merion and PV introduced the Scotch Broom because of each other. I'm sure one copied the other, I don't know who copied who, so your opinion may not be wide off the mark. I do know that Mr Steiniger introduced them. As for the aerials, I don't know the time frame of when they went in, so won't hazard a guess, but the broom was in areas that did wash out  (even if it was only a short bunker bank). Believe what you want but trust me, 7 green side bunker washes out.

I'm not stating the pines would be my first choice for erosion control but they do work at PV.

That's part of the issue isn't it ?
If you were concerned about erosion on that steep bank behind # 9 green, down to # 18 fairway, you wouldn't go planting pines, would you.
You already stated that they wouldn't be your first choice, thus, it's a prudent conclusion that whomever planted those pines didn't do so primarily to control erosion.

As you state, it's your conclusion. We can agree we wouldn't use them for erosion control but someone at some point obviously decided that they were needed

I am not, and did not, ignore the topography behind 9 in any of my comments. I know exactly what's back there.

Then you know that that steep bank behind # 9 green, down to # 18 fairway isn't densely populated with Pines.

As for your comments I am assuming you mean 10 tee as there are no tees behind left 9 green and I helped build the ones behind right 9. There is a ridge back there with overgrown bunkers in it but the entire slope from there continues to 18 fairway. So please clarify?

The terrain, from the top of the ridge behind # 9 Green (left) slopes back toward the green/tee on # 9 and not toward the 18th fairway.

That little ridge has nothing to do with erosion, it's the slope from there to 18 is what is being discussed.

I know grading, ground cover and grass are the best erosion control methods - I never said anything different.

The pines cover the entire bank, not just the top. They are dense and do slow down the rainfall hitting the ground underneath and seem to work in this instance - I'm just stating fact, from seeing it first hand.

Upon closer inspection I think you'll find hardwoods, rather than pines at the Top of the ridge and that the entire steep bank leading down to # 18 fairway is not planted with Pines.

i should have said trees.... The woods at PV contain both but are predominately pine. Doesn't the presence of hardwoods and their large area shallower rooting not aid the argument that the trees are for stabilization?

On my next visit, if permitted, I'll take pictures,
If I'm not permitted, my short term memory will have to suffice.

When I stated that other areas wash out, I was not just referring to 9. I have spent a lot of time in a backhoe putting sand back where it belongs at pine valley and I know I never had to fix erosion behind 9 or anywhere covered with pines. I have moved a lot of sand in areas that had no cover, whether it be pines, scrub pine, scotch broom, 'native' grasses etc

Alan, in all candor, you'd have one hell of a time getting a backhoe on that steep bank behind # 9.
I'm pretty sure that you'd roll it over and down to the 18th fairway.
And/or that PV, for safety reasons, would never let you attempt that.

No one doubts that erosion of sandy soil is an issue.

The issue is steep bank behind # 9 and the pines that were either planted there or that occured naturally.

It would be one fun ride to take a backhoe on that hill - however I never had to, as it never washed out. But I have had one in plenty of places that are not protected from erosion.

Patrick, you are more than welcome to your opinion that the trees were not planted to prevent erosion. I don't want to come across confrontational but conversations like this are pointless. I'll gladly answer specific answers on anything but nitpicking items, is not constructive or informational. This thread was started by someone asking a question and two people with intimate knowledge answered. You may not like our answers, especially as they do not agree with your opinion but the fact is the trees are for stabilization and areas that are not protected wash out when it rains. Please don't try and challenge my credibility and whittle down our answers to get to the answer you want.  The OPs question was answered, so as far as I'm concerned this topic is closed.

As for the other comments, Pine Valley,  is as special as we all know or imagine it to be. The people running it (from the board to the management) respect it and know exactly what they are doing. Their guidance for the last 101 years proves that. It's easy for us to sit around this tree house and want to do x,y, & z to the place but ultimately the guardians know what they're doing and nothing is done on a whim. As with everything in life, there's always a bigger picture, that looking in you don't see.  I've never heard anyone leave and say they had a bad time because the pimple on 18 green is gone or there are trees behind 9 etc. Pine Valley is special and I'm very proud to be a part of its history.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, you are more than welcome to your opinion that the trees were not planted to prevent erosion. I don't want to come across confrontational but conversations like this are pointless. I'll gladly answer specific answers on anything but nitpicking items, is not constructive or informational.

Alan,

But, you can only answer questions from a contemporaneous perspective, not an historical perspective

This thread was started by someone asking a question and two people with intimate knowledge answered. You may not like our answers, especially as they do not agree with your opinion but the fact is the trees are for stabilization and areas that are not protected wash out when it rains.
You don't know that.
You only surmise that from a contemporaneous perspective, because third parties told you that was the reason, but, those third parties weren't privy to the reasons that the Pines were planted at the top of the ridge behind the 9th green.

You yourself stated that you wouldn't plant pines to stem erosion.
Pines are not known to be employed for erosion control.
I have to believe that individuals responsible for the planting of the pines behind the 9th green were as knowledgeable about erosion control and vegetation as any of us.  Or, do you think they made a colossal mistake ?

Please don't try and challenge my credibility and whittle down our answers to get to the answer you want.  

Your credibiity is limited to relatively contemporaneous experience, certainly not anything that happened at PV in the 70's, 60's 20's or teens.

It's not a question of the answer I want, it's the undeniable photographic evidence that proves that the 9th green was a skyline green.
In addition, Crump's intent/statements support the photographic evidence, or vice versa if you prefer.

The OPs question was answered, so as far as I'm concerned this topic is closed.

You're not the final arbiter in determining if the topic is closed or not.
The fact is that the 9th green was intended to be and built to be a skyline green.
That is undeniable.

As for the other comments, Pine Valley,  is as special as we all know or imagine it to be.
The people running it (from the board to the management) respect it and know exactly what they are doing.
Their guidance for the last 101 years proves that.

Quite to the contrary, PV was allowed to suffer through benign neglect.
Trees grew IN bunkers,
Tree limbs and roots were invasive in bunkers.
Trees intruded into the playing corridors.
Do you call that evidence of proper management and guidance ?

It's only in recent times that those conditions were addressed.

It's easy for us to sit around this tree house and want to do x,y, & z to the place but ultimately the guardians know what they're doing and nothing is done on a whim.


While I agree that almost nothing is done on a whim, the guardians were sleeping at the switch for decades and allowed trees to become invasive to the corridors of play and into the bunkers.

The removal of the mound on # 18 green seems whimsical to me.

And, some have questioned the softening of some of the greens, such as # 2.

As with everything in life, there's always a bigger picture, that looking in you don't see.

It's just the opposite.
Outsiders see changes that those too close to the course don't see, with the tree issue being a primary example.  

I've never heard anyone leave and say they had a bad time because the pimple on 18 green is gone or there are trees behind 9 etc.

99 % of  golfers and members were unaware that a mound existed in the 18th green.
Most are unaware of Crump's intent.
He conceived, designed and built the 18th green with a mound in it for a valid reason, one that you were probably unaware of until you read it on this site.

I would offer that anyone leaving would have had a better time had the 9th been a skyline green and had the 18th green had the mound in it.
It's a matter of incremental improvement.

Pine Valley is special and I'm very proud to be a part of its history.

And, you should be, but, don't try to defend the custodialship as being perfect for 100 years.

How do you defend the act of removing the mound from the 18th green.
How do you reconcile the destruction of an architectural feature that Crump conceived, designed and built, with great management and guidance for 100 years ?

"Homers" aren't exactly independent observers.