[Jason Connor]

Mike if  a group with no friends playing a two ball (at a busy four ball time) pays a premium and disturbs my fourball and others, how does them paying more money not piss me off?
 

My take is that it's meant to be a disincentive so you'll be disturbed less often.

[Mark Johnson]

double post

[Andrew Buck]

Golf courses need speed limits. Yesterday I let through a twosome on the first hole while we were on the green 9 minutes after our tee time. I had no choice, they had just hit to within 20 yds of the green and were running at us. Last year I let through a twosome on the 14th tee that had already gone through 7 other groups. They didn't even bother to putt on the preceding hole just so they could catch us on the tee. I do not go to golf to gallery people who can not find playing partners nor have the time to enjoy a game with the friends they do have.  

I do not understand why purposely tailgating a group in front of you is not considered rude.

It is one of the real problems in golf.
a foursome playing at a three forty five pace can have their day ruined by allowing 7 two balls thru, each adding 2-5 minutes to the fourball's round-each play thru delay leaving them suceptible to the next following speed group.
A group playing on a relatively full course has to as John says, follow a speed limit,play early or during less crowded times, or at least use good judgement about who and when to play through.-good management should control this.

Mike if  a group with no friends playing a two ball (at a busy four ball time) pays a premium and disturbs my fourball and others, how does them paying more money not piss me off?
 

As with everything, it requires common sense.  If a 4-some is in the 7:00 AM first group of the day, while a twosome is at 7:10 and they can't mutually agree to flip spots someone is being an ass.  

If a anyone shows up at a peak time when pace of play dictates 4:00 hours and expects to play in 3:00, they are at fault.  

If I show up at the Club on a Wednesday afternoon and there are two groups, a foursome that is in the 4th fairway, and me on the first tee, and I walk up to the 6th tee as they are finishing hitting their tee shots and they don't acknowledge me, well, I'm going to have the urge to tailgate them, although I'll likely just skip around (since the course is empty).

[Mark Johnson]

Golf won't police itself.  It takes just one or two people to back up an entire course and ruin the experience for countless dozens.  Rangers are incredibly timid, everyone is afraid of upsetting the consumer, because rounds are indeed down and God forbid you upset someone, you lose another potential customer.  I can see where people who have families and work a lot of hours have walked away.  I have many friends and acquaintances that have walked away.  Because time is a precious asset.  And many of us already have stress on our jobs and families, why engage in an activity that should NOT be stressful, but ends up being incredibly stressful because of the inconsideration of others.  And then on top of that, paying for all this.  There are so many other things you can be do.

I disagree with your premise.   Golf can and must police itself.

In fact out here in Minnesota, there are two upscale  public courses (one of which measures over 7000 yards)  which do an exceptional job of policing pace of play.   If you get 5 minutes behind time par, there is an assistant out there moving things along.   When you go there, you know your round won't last more than 4:15.   This is one reason why there are always full despite being priced over the market.

The challenge with resort courses is that they have little repeat business.   This strongly disincents policing anything and most of my least pleasurable rounds have been at resort-type courses.   In fact, I can only remember one resorty courses that actively discussed time par.

[Dan Herrmann]

And you have the other end.  Our member-only times end at 10AM on the weekend.  Laura and I teed-off at 9:40 (last group without a member).  We were putting out on 18 and the group behind us were nowhere to be found (they weren't up to 15 yet, at least).

One thing we really need to do, by the way, is offer a "class" for new members to help them understand some of the time-saving hints we long-timers have discovered.   For example, it's a lot quicker to walk on the "secret" path through the woods on #3 than to use the more established path.

[Garland Bayley]

...
If I was the manager at your private club, I would set up a points system. If the twosome chooses to tee off as a twosome after foursomes have started, they have to pay a premium to play through and disturb groups such as yours. Maybe it is $$ fees, maybe it is $$ contributions to the local kids program or a charity the club supports. Can be varied according to the culture of the club.
...

Better yet, put the foursomes that insist on playing in over four hours out in the afternoon.

[Sean_A]

...
If I was the manager at your private club, I would set up a points system. If the twosome chooses to tee off as a twosome after foursomes have started, they have to pay a premium to play through and disturb groups such as yours. Maybe it is $$ fees, maybe it is $$ contributions to the local kids program or a charity the club supports. Can be varied according to the culture of the club.
...

Better yet, put the foursomes that insist on playing in over four hours out in the afternoon.

Part of this "issue" is easily resolved if golfers showed some proper etiquette.  It shouldn't take long before a 4ball runs into lost ball trouble (in my experience - ths is the biggest problem with slowing down the game with 4balls).  If they have a 2ball on their backside the gentlemanly thing to do is either don't look for the ball or let the group through as soon as its obvious the ball won't be easily found.  It seems the culture of allowing people thru in this situation is dying for some reason.  Why is that, especially when its a 2ball waiting (not that this should matter)?

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

It seems the culture of allowing people thru in this situation is dying for some reason.  Why is that, especially when its a 2ball waiting (not that this should matter)?

Ciao

My father did not play so I learned from friends on muni courses from friends who had fathers that played on private courses. The fathers and sons were not afraid to educate me on etiquette. Today it is a different game and people seem to start at driving ranges, and then take their game to the for-profit public course.

There is no system in place from the PGA or USGA to teach rules or etiquette, and this is where leadership in golf is non-exixtant. Ok, the USGA creates a "while were young" campaign, but there is no way for the average person to understand what that means on the golf course.

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff
• Want to play before 11 am? You have to have a handicap of 21 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro
• After 11 am, open golf

The PGA and USGA need to create a rewards system and that will also mean adjusting the rules for non-tournament play. How many rules get broken on average when a group plays through? Does anyone putt out?

Having rules in place that people don't follow creates a soulless game. There is tournament golf and then there is everything else.

[Brent Hutto]

Mike,

You must be thinking of some hypothetical world in which public, for-profit courses don't care about getting every possible green fee from anyone who cares to purchase one. If a typical 15-rounds-a-year golfer called up his local public course and was treated to a 10-minute dissertation on all the rules and categories and stuff you describe he'd hang up the phone after the first 30 seconds.

Golf at its root is about hitting a ball with a club, finding it, hitting it again. By the time you get to reserving tee times for groups of some certain number of people with some specific handicap you're so far afield from the basic nature of the game nobody but an anal-retentive headcase would be intersted.

[jeffwarne]

Mike,

You must be thinking of some hypothetical world in which public, for-profit courses don't care about getting every possible green fee from anyone who cares to purchase one. If a typical 15-rounds-a-year golfer called up his local public course and was treated to a 10-minute dissertation on all the rules and categories and stuff you describe he'd hang up the phone after the first 30 seconds.

Golf at its root is about hitting a ball with a club, finding it, hitting it again. By the time you get to reserving tee times for groups of some certain number of people with some specific handicap you're so far afield from the basic nature of the game nobody but an anal-retentive headcase would be intersted.

+1

But it's all good in fantasy utopia

[Sean_A]

It seems the culture of allowing people thru in this situation is dying for some reason.  Why is that, especially when its a 2ball waiting (not that this should matter)?

Ciao

My father did not play so I learned from friends on muni courses from friends who had fathers that played on private courses. The fathers and sons were not afraid to educate me on etiquette. Today it is a different game and people seem to start at driving ranges, and then take their game to the for-profit public course.

There is no system in place from the PGA or USGA to teach rules or etiquette, and this is where leadership in golf is non-exixtant. Ok, the USGA creates a "while were young" campaign, but there is no way for the average person to understand what that means on the golf course.

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff
• Want to play before 11 am? You have to have a handicap of 21 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro
• After 11 am, open golf

The PGA and USGA need to create a rewards system and that will also mean adjusting the rules for non-tournament play. How many rules get broken on average when a group plays through? Does anyone putt out?

Having rules in place that people don't follow creates a soulless game. There is tournament golf and then there is everything else.

Or, the bloody ranger does his job  .  The value of a good ranger with people skills can go a long way to having more satisfied customers.  For private clubs, I think a discrete word with the guy in charge of tee sheets/course managment would work most of the time.  

Mike - stop looking to the USGA to solve your problems.  You have the power 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike - stop looking to the USGA to solve your problems.  You have the power 

Ciao

I am serious when I say that I look for tour operators and golf course operators like Mike Young and Sean Arble to make the changes.

[jeffwarne]

It seems the culture of allowing people thru in this situation is dying for some reason.  Why is that, especially when its a 2ball waiting (not that this should matter)?

Ciao

My father did not play so I learned from friends on muni courses from friends who had fathers that played on private courses. The fathers and sons were not afraid to educate me on etiquette. Today it is a different game and people seem to start at driving ranges, and then take their game to the for-profit public course.

There is no system in place from the PGA or USGA to teach rules or etiquette, and this is where leadership in golf is non-exixtant. Ok, the USGA creates a "while were young" campaign, but there is no way for the average person to understand what that means on the golf course.

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff
• Want to play before 11 am? You have to have a handicap of 21 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro
• After 11 am, open golf

The PGA and USGA need to create a rewards system and that will also mean adjusting the rules for non-tournament play. How many rules get broken on average when a group plays through? Does anyone putt out?

Having rules in place that people don't follow creates a soulless game. There is tournament golf and then there is everything else.

Or, the bloody ranger does his job  .  The value of a good ranger with people skills can go a long way to having more satisfied customers.  For private clubs, I think a discrete word with the guy in charge of tee sheets/course managment would work most of the time.  

or to take that a step farther, the "bloody" starter does his job.
You can't send two two balls, followed by a single, after 6 consecutive 4 balls have teed off on a busy, full golf course.
the Starter  has to either
A. pair groups
B. Temper expectations-many two balls are fine fine playing at a 4 ball pace if informed of what the situation is or may simply be that slow and that's why they play as a 2 ball
C. Educate smaller (or larger) groups on when the ideal time for their size or pace group to play at their ideal pace (speed slots, less crowded times)

Mike is right when he suggests the onus is on golf course operators

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike is right when he suggests the onus is on golf course operators

It is also complicated, so I don't want to come across as a know it all.

Yale Golf Course is there for students, staff, alumni, and the rest of us. How would they rate me, a non-alumni player against an undergrad who wants to try the course or an alumni who writes a big check? Complicated for sure.

I rarely see any Yale students on the weekend, but reality is, it is there for them not me, and their parents (most, not all) pay "heavy dues". The staff runs PE courses for students and they do many clinics with local kids before they go on the course.

The starters are very active and they will send me off on holes 1-4 and #10 depending on logistics of the day. They try to monitor some slow play choke points at #10 and #13, but it is not perfect. They are trying, and that effort is appreciated. Perfection is down the road....

[Tim Martin]

It seems the culture of allowing people thru in this situation is dying for some reason.  Why is that, especially when its a 2ball waiting (not that this should matter)?

Ciao

My father did not play so I learned from friends on muni courses from friends who had fathers that played on private courses. The fathers and sons were not afraid to educate me on etiquette. Today it is a different game and people seem to start at driving ranges, and then take their game to the for-profit public course.

There is no system in place from the PGA or USGA to teach rules or etiquette, and this is where leadership in golf is non-exixtant. Ok, the USGA creates a "while were young" campaign, but there is no way for the average person to understand what that means on the golf course.

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff
• Want to play before 11 am? You have to have a handicap of 21 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro
• After 11 am, open golf

The PGA and USGA need to create a rewards system and that will also mean adjusting the rules for non-tournament play. How many rules get broken on average when a group plays through? Does anyone putt out?

Having rules in place that people don't follow creates a soulless game. There is tournament golf and then there is everything else.

This sort of caste system will only drive more people away. You are not going to mandate etiquette in a game that doesn't faintly resemble what you grew up with. Your intention is honorable but ill conceived in 2014.

[BCowan]

And you have the other end.  Our member-only times end at 10AM on the weekend.  Laura and I teed-off at 9:40 (last group without a member).  We were putting out on 18 and the group behind us were nowhere to be found (they weren't up to 15 yet, at least).

One thing we really need to do, by the way, is offer a "class" for new members to help them understand some of the time-saving hints we long-timers have discovered.   For example, it's a lot quicker to walk on the "secret" path through the woods on #3 than to use the more established path.

Dan,

   I agree with all that you said.  So your club is a restricted public play semi-private club?  I think that model is undeserved in the US and could be very profitable.  If you play after member times is the pace of play much slower on average than during member blocked times? 

[Mike Sweeney]

This sort of caste system will only drive more people away. You are not going to mandate etiquette in a game that doesn't faintly resemble what you grew up with. Your intention is honorable but ill conceived in 2014.

It is already being done and middle tier private courses are converting now. This is already happening at Outpost Club and a number of other online private golf sites such as box groove - https://www.boxgroove.com/ (yes a weird name)

The game will get stronger when it shrinks and each course creates unique playing models. Basically the USA is catching up to Europe, and adding a technology element to the process.

[Mark Johnson]

It seems the culture of allowing people thru in this situation is dying for some reason.  Why is that, especially when its a 2ball waiting (not that this should matter)?

Ciao

My father did not play so I learned from friends on muni courses from friends who had fathers that played on private courses. The fathers and sons were not afraid to educate me on etiquette. Today it is a different game and people seem to start at driving ranges, and then take their game to the for-profit public course.

There is no system in place from the PGA or USGA to teach rules or etiquette, and this is where leadership in golf is non-exixtant. Ok, the USGA creates a "while were young" campaign, but there is no way for the average person to understand what that means on the golf course.

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff
• Want to play before 11 am? You have to have a handicap of 21 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro
• After 11 am, open golf

The PGA and USGA need to create a rewards system and that will also mean adjusting the rules for non-tournament play. How many rules get broken on average when a group plays through? Does anyone putt out?

Having rules in place that people don't follow creates a soulless game. There is tournament golf and then there is everything else.

This sort of caste system will only drive more people away. You are not going to mandate etiquette in a game that doesn't faintly resemble what you grew up with. Your intention is honorable but ill conceived in 2014.

It wont if done right.

The issue courses are facing right now is how to serve the loyal and irregular customers at the same time.

Filling tee times on the weekend before 11 and on Friday afternoons is not the issue.   Go to any established course and I bet you cant get anything other than a single tee time for this Saturday morning.  (And if you can, there is a bigger issue.)

The challenge is the filling up the rest of the tee sheet.    This is where courses need to be creative to get beginners on the course.    This is also potentially the most profitable time as well since early morning players rarely drink or stay at the course after their round.

I have no issues with "certifying" players to play earlier or have a players card like many public courses do which give preferred tee time access.  (I don't think doing it on handicap makes sense for several reasons, the biggest being that it discriminates against women).

[Tim Martin]

This sort of caste system will only drive more people away. You are not going to mandate etiquette in a game that doesn't faintly resemble what you grew up with. Your intention is honorable but ill conceived in 2014.

It is already being done and middle tier private courses are converting now. This is already happening at Outpost Club and a number of other online private golf sites such as box groove - https://www.boxgroove.com/ (yes a weird name)

The game will get stronger when it shrinks and each course creates unique playing models. Basically the USA is catching up to Europe, and adding a technology element to the process.

Do you really think that Outpost Club is representative of the general golfing population? What clubs are using the handicap system to regulate tee times?

[Mike Sweeney]

Do you really think that Outpost Club is representative of the general golfing population? What clubs are using the handicap system to regulate tee times?

I have posted on GCA.com which Mike Young would say means "Sweeney is a golf geek/dork and knows nothing about the "general golfing population". "

Mike Young is smart!

1. The entire value proposition of the Outpost Club, as I understand it as I am not a member, is that it IS segmented away from the general golfing population, and I support that.

2. The handicap system with a reliance on the current rules of golf does not work. As mentioned before, there needs to Tournament rules, and then other sets of rules for casual play.

[Tim Gavrich]

My friend and I were playing a late afternoon quick 18 here in CT and we arrive on the 11th tee to find a threesome of guys about our age (24/25), with untucked shirts and music playing from one of their carts.

You might be thinking that this is a bad story but, nope, never has a group so politely and quickly allowed another to play through. They were MUCH cooler about it than 95% of the older folk I've/we've encountered over the years. I left feeling better about the state of the game in the hands of my generation, because that wasn't the first time I've seen a group of players my age who were markedly more courteous than older players. Finally, the abiding self-consciousness for which people like to deride Millennials does some good! 

Later on the back side, we had to skip a hole because the foursome (with older people than us) in front of us was playing as if it was a U.S. Open (at 7 pm early in the back nine on a public course) and looked back at us repeatedly without waving us through. After bypassing them, we encountered no one else the rest of the round.

[Mark Johnson]

My friend and I were playing a late afternoon quick 18 here in CT and we arrive on the 11th tee to find a threesome of guys about our age (24/25), with untucked shirts and music playing from one of their carts.

You might be thinking that this is a bad story but, nope, never has a group so politely and quickly allowed another to play through. They were MUCH cooler about it than 95% of the older folk I've/we've encountered over the years. I left feeling better about the state of the game in the hands of my generation, because that wasn't the first time I've seen a group of players my age who were markedly more courteous than older players. Finally, the abiding self-consciousness for which people like to deride Millennials does some good! 

Later on the back side, we had to skip a hole because the foursome (with older people than us) in front of us was playing as if it was a U.S. Open (at 7 pm early in the back nine on a public course) and looked back at us repeatedly without waving us through. After bypassing them, we encountered no one else the rest of the round.

Tim,   where in CT can you play a quick 18?

[Garland Bayley]

...

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff

...

Go take a hike!

[Mike Sweeney]

...

• Want to play before 9 am? You have to have a handicap of 15 or better, have completed a free rules and etiquette lesson with a PGA pro, and have been rated a 4 hour or less player by our staff

...

Go take a hike!

If the rules were a 5 handicap, I would go take a bike ride and then tee off at 9am. Or I could find a course has a slower pace of play. There are 15,000 courses in the USA, so there is no reason for them all to have the same basic model.

The reality is better players want to play with better players, Jaka wants to play at his pace os play, so why not find a system that can work better for both?

[B.Ross]

It seems like the Dick's article kicked out this theme:

A Game of Golf? Not for Many Millennials
Golf's Retail and Sporting Ends Scramble to Find New Strategy.


i actually think amongst millenials this has nothing to do w/ a lack of competition but just the burdeoning fitness craze in america (juice places, tough mudders, cross fit etc) thats paired w/ the vanity of social media. people want to look good (yes i know they always have) but now w/ instagram/facebook you can show off your progress and all your athletic accomplishments of marathons/spartan races and things of that ilk when you couldn't 10+ years ago.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/a-game-of-golf-not-for-many-millennials-1406159228

That picture/graph is pretty funny.  Yoga?  Jogging?  What this points to is what all of us over 40 already know...kids don't want or feel the need to compete.  They are now choosing things that don't involve failing.  When I was a kid, we pitched, now coaches do it.  Tee ball?  That was for 5 year olds.  Soccer?  That was for kids that didn't have the coordination to play the main-line sports.  And yes, in the late 70's-early 80's golf was a 'sissy' sport.  I didn't learn until my college baseball career ceased at 19 years old.  

Now golf is 'cool', but kids don't play?  The last few issues of golf digest trying to pander with stories of weed and lifestyle articles is even more of a stretch.

Kids today have 2k MacBooks, iPhones with $120 bills, triple the school debt.  They wouldn't be caught dead in a used car like I drove around in for 10 years.  They also won't live in a house the size my grandparents lived in.  They buy $3 cups of coffee, $5 snob beer.  They eat out every meal.

My first set of clubs came from Wal-mart.  They were Dunlops.  If ebay existed back then, I could have bought the equivalent of a set of Callaway x-16's or Taylor Made r7's for about the same money.  Golfnow was called walking.  Golf courses rarely discounted their rounds.  

The kids that focus on one sport at my club (golf) are gentlemen and a breath of fresh air.  They play EVERY DAY in the summer.  Several work as cart boys or on the Green crew.  They call me Mr. and they love the game.  This is the core group coming up that closely resembles what many have already spoke of (positively)...not these flat-billed, 25-35's that don't attempt to understand the rules, dress like clowns, eat wraps for lunch and play no competitive events.  

We don't need to conform to them, but clubs do and have already...and most have huge churn.  

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