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Mike_Young

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Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2014, 06:51:43 PM »
The easiest way to get the complete truth on how golf is doing in your area is to ask the Titleist rep in your area if ball sales are up or down and which balls he sells the most.  I think ball sales have remained steady or increased even with all the bitching and moaning.... :) :)  what does that tell us?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 08:15:20 PM by BCowan »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #102 on: July 25, 2014, 08:13:41 PM »
...


I can't believe you deleted that pile of crap. Who told you David played for Northwestern?

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #103 on: July 25, 2014, 09:44:14 PM »
I have reached Ludicrous Speed myself. I've gone PLAID!

Best post in this thread ... I'm surrounded by a$@holes..







« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 09:57:33 PM by Andrew Buck »

BCowan

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #104 on: July 25, 2014, 09:55:10 PM »
I have reached Ludicrous Speed myself. I've gone PLAID!

Best post in this thread ... I'm surrounded by assholes.

   I would like to apologize to Brent, David, and William for my tone and words. 

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #105 on: July 25, 2014, 09:59:26 PM »
It's just a movie quote playing off Brett's movie quote.  Funnier in my own mind after my second glass of wine.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #106 on: July 25, 2014, 10:51:48 PM »
I have reached Ludicrous Speed myself. I've gone PLAID!

Best post in this thread ... I'm surrounded by assholes.

   I would like to apologize to Brent, David, and William for my tone and words. 

How generous after deleting you posts.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #107 on: July 25, 2014, 11:55:46 PM »
I agree that the most accurate observation of golf is that it is going through a "cyclical adjustment".  Was there even a there, there- when the industry built all those courses in the past 20 years?  The same courses closing up now.  You have to wonder if the predicted demand was pure wishful thinking.  Golf is niche.  Those that love it, love it.  There is enough of us to maintain the sport, culture, ect...  We could give a damn about manufactuer's over heated sales projections falling short.  



I think there was.

When I was a teenager living in the Denver area in the mid-90s, it was damn near impossible to get a weekend tee time. Any time. Anywhere. The courses were choked.

But since that time, the Denver metro area has added ... I'm not even sure, maybe close to 20 new public course options? There was a need for growth, but it seems like 3 new courses opened for every 1 that was needed. And that was just during the boom time; it's not entirely clear as the game again settles/adjusts that many more courses were needed than existed nationwide prior to that 90s boom.

It's hard to blame people for going for it, and I'm not complaining since it means more places and fewer crowds when I get the rare chance to play, but it was a pretty classic boom time situation. The demand was real, for a time, it was just over served.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #108 on: July 26, 2014, 02:43:16 AM »
The easiest way to get the complete truth on how golf is doing in your area is to ask the Titleist rep in your area if ball sales are up or down and which balls he sells the most.  I think ball sales have remained steady or increased even with all the bitching and moaning.... :) :)  what does that tell us?

The long ball is resulting in more lost balls?

More water and rough on modern courses results in more lost balls?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JHoulihan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #109 on: July 26, 2014, 03:26:17 AM »
"Your logic may apply to a segment of the population, but only a small one. Most of those "one-sport" athletes never even get a college scholarship and could easily take golf back up by age 18 if they wanted to. Plenty of avid golfers take up the game later in life after playing another sport as a kid. My Dad played baseball and took up golf at 25.

I don't think this comes down to one reason, even though I gave one specific one for myself. Most of my generation seems to be hammered with debt and golf just isn't a practical hobby except for those with means. To be any good at golf requires some pretty serious effort with lessons, practicing, playing, etc. The financial commitment just isn't possible for a lot of this generation, even if they like the idea of the game. It also isn't a game that can be learned by playing/practicing once every month or even every two weeks. That level of commitment separates those who are golfers from those who play golf. And those in the "play golf" category are leaving in droves.

That is the problem! Why are sporty kids forced to pick one sport when they most likely won't be a college athlete, and if you do become a college athlete, you aren't going pro? By 18, kids don't have the time or the financial support to then pick up the game.

I think there's a lot to this. The barriers to picking up the game as a young adult or later on are significant. Kids aren't really being kept away from the game because of dress codes or rules or even that it's hard. But I do think those things create a barrier for the 20-something set who might have played a few times as a kid, maybe gets invited out by friends or co-workers, and just finds it too much hassle. Not only is it hard to learn to play the game, as someone else mentioned, it's hard to learn all of there basic etiquette and how to of golf."

Here are my thoughts on the above.
I think this is a great start to an article but importanly missing some information for perspective.
One is a graph (later supplied by someone) showing the numer of participants now vs then - to get a real sense of incline/decline.
Two is the numbers of golfers related to the total number of courses opened. As others have eluded to, just because courses were being built, did not mean that they were necessary.
Three is a chart showing the average age of golfer compared to what age that they began learning/playing the game.
Four is some sort of comparison of golf in urban vs rural areas. I have never seen such a comparison, but now that I live in a city of millions my perception of the game has changed.

Some bits of information about me. Age 33. Currently played 9 rounds this year (Most was about 60-70 while in college to low of 10-15 when busiest. Play golf at public courses 99% of rounds with occasional private round. Started playing at age 15. Hit balls in a country backyard/pasture for first few months before eventually making it to the driving range/course months later and several dozens of golf balls lost. Grew up in country town of about 32000, now in downtown Chicago with population of 2.7 mil depending if you include the whole Chicagoland area.

My thoughts.
One, how is the game tought differently in urban vs rural areas. I grew up hitting balls on/off range in clothes that were appropriate (gym shorts/tennis shoes) and never was reprimanded for doing so. I see very similar things on driving ranges here in the city/suburbs as well. Clothes may be more traditional on course, but certainly not a necessity for play.
Two, learning the on course etiquette cannot be overstated. It may seem so easy to some, but others I have played with did not grow up with the same rules. If you do not have a great mentor teaching you (pro or family member) I think that you are destined to make some mistakes and lose out on the true experience of being on the course.
Three, I grew up learning the game watching my grandparents play charity tournaments. I did not start playing with them right away. Instead learned the basic rules and how to act before I was taken on course. If you do not do this early in life (choose what ever age you think is best) I think you make it more difficult to start. I am not saying that you cannot learn game at 30, just that it become steeper curve to success the later in life you begin.
Four, access to play is a matter of perspective. Growing up getting to a couse was difficult. No car and little means to get there on a regular basis. College was a dream. Make your own schedule and play when you want. For me the most quantity of play as well as some of my best scores ever. Started college barely breaking 100 and best score at graduation +1/72. Currently more difficult again. I live in the inner city. I rarely ever see others with clubs here, with driving ranges hot or miss with people. Ranges in suburbs way busier than those in city. Very few of my downtown friends own cars and get to the suburbs to play frequently if at all.

I love the game yes, but my perspective has changed dramatically over the years. Good or bad I am not sure, just a different view at a game that I grew up loving and continue to currently. If your thoughts on the game have not changed in the past 10 years, then I think you should take a serious look at your own game and the game in general.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:56:09 PM by JHoulihan »

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #110 on: July 26, 2014, 03:49:27 AM »
My dear chap, Mr. Houlihan,

You write "If your thoughts on the game have not changed in the past 10 years, then I think you should take a serious look at your own game and the game in general."  My thoughts on the game haven't changed in forty years what am I supposed to do!!

I found it then, and find it now, a captivating and wonderful game and forsee no change in my outlook for the next couple of decades!
I have found it equally fulfilling and exasperating, a comedy and a tragedy, a pleasure and a trial but I won't be turning introspective about my disaster of a game or the game in general any time soon!
I am ever so glad that I don't need to take stock of my parlous game (as my thoughts on it haven't changed) as that might send me into a spiral of despair! Best that I continue on my merry insouciant way… whatcha think!

Chuckling away here,

Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

JHoulihan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #111 on: July 26, 2014, 04:18:15 AM »
Colin,

Actually I am glad that you have positive thoughts about this game. My comment points more towards those thinking that "golf should be what it used to be." The games equipment, pace of play, and number of players changes constantly. In the end the game is still the same. Man hits ball, finds ball, and repeats. Some do it walking and smiling, some do it riding and swearing. Losing younger players is certainly not a good thing for the game overall, but will the game fail going forward? I think that has much more to do with multiple factors rather than one age group alone.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:56:31 PM by JHoulihan »

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #112 on: July 26, 2014, 06:27:03 AM »
If your thoughts on the game have not changed in the past 10 years, then I think you should take a serious look at your own game and the game in general.
[/b]

My thoughts on golf are evolutionary coming up on 40 years of hitting a ball not so well.

My current thought is a I am headed to a range, not a golf course, in Connecticut today after a bike ride. The evolution of golf is I suck at golf right now :)

Irons and putting were pretty good this week at Bethpage, but literally can't get off the tee. I am sure there will be others there in a similar position.

"Losing younger players is certainly not a good thing for the game overall, but will the game fail going forward? I think that has much more to do with multiple factors rather than one age group alone."

Fail? Not sure what you mean by this, but golf is not going anywhere other than changing, just like life.....

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #113 on: July 26, 2014, 06:38:09 AM »
JH,

Ah, young man (said in jest as I'm all of four years older than you  ;D), I once thought of the evolution of golf in terms very similar to you, finding the very notion of hickory golf etc to be a nonsense. However, and I'm no hickory player to this day, these older chaps here have taught me a thing or two over the last couple of years and, particularly in view of my architectural education, I've come to realise that the 'progression' of equipment and such like is nothing but a futile exercise in making more equal less. Length, ultimately, is only relative to the size of the field you play in.

But regardless, you make some good points about multiple factors which have afflicted participation levels amongst those under 30, although I reiterate that the supply of golf courses has done much to paint a picture which is nowhere near as bad as people often perceive it to be.

I'm just not convinced however that younger players are so concerned about time constraints or other factors raised, or certainly not to the extent which is often assumed. More than anything, under 30's don't have an imperialist sense of land ownership as they grew up in a world where power was virtual rather than physical. Consequently, there's no draw to manicured flower beds in the way which perhaps there was for the baby boomers. The enjoyment gained from the course is all there is to appraise for these kids and that's no bad thing, unless of course you manage a club which is based on style rather than substance or, to put it another way, an artificially pretty course which actually becomes dull pretty quickly. All of this bodes well for the purist but we can hardly be surprised when those in the industry with a stylised product do everything they can to create a magpie effect around their product. These people will do everything in their power except hire a skilled architect to transform the course. You'll see every trick in the book to promote their package while actually deflecting the light away from the playability of the course. 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #114 on: July 26, 2014, 06:40:10 AM »
I don't give a flying f$&@ if Fila Korea or Ingersol Rand meet their quarterly projections or if Yuppie Hills Golf & Country Club has to, god forbid!, go public and Biff and Buffy lose their equity downstroke.  I'm a golf consumer and all I see ahead of me is 30 years of blue skies and a myriad of interesting, affordable golf.  From where I sit, golf has never been better.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 06:43:23 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2014, 06:53:54 AM »
More than anything, under 30's don't have an imperialist sense of land ownership as they grew up in a world where power was virtual rather than physical. Consequently, there's no draw to manicured flower beds in the way which perhaps there was for the baby boomers.

Really really interesting observation on land ownership vs the virtual world.

Perhaps this is a cause for the decline of private golf. Not sure, but I will be thinking about that when I solve my driver issues at the public  range this afternoon.

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #116 on: July 26, 2014, 08:06:00 AM »
A fair amount of Millienial participation decline is money.  Skiing participation overall and by Millienials has dropped even more than golf.

Jon Nolan

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #117 on: July 26, 2014, 12:46:20 PM »
A fair amount of Millienial participation decline is money.  Skiing participation overall and by Millienials has dropped even more than golf.

I haven't seen any numbers on this.  Are you including boarders?  From where I sit skiing/boarding have never been so popular although, as mentioned above, climate issues are going to take a toll probably in my lifetime and certainly in my kids' lifetimes.

A Young Adult Premier pass at my local (Snowbasin - a world class ski area that has hosted Olympic downhills) is currently $489.  It was about $20 cheaper earlier this month.  It includes:

- 2014 Summer Gondola Access, loaded onto winter season pass
- Three days of skiing/riding at Sun Valley Resort, Idaho. Sun Valley tickets will be loaded onto season pass. No blackout dates!
- "New" $99 2 hour private coaching at Snowsports (One offer per passholder, blackout dates apply)
- $159 hotel rate at Sun Valley Lodge or Inn (on a space available basis).
- 15% discount off Winter Repair in Grizzly Center Repair Shop.
- Two 50% off buddy vouchers, can be used any time during 2014-2015 season. (Pass Holder must be present to redeem)
- Discount off Tubing Hill ride tickets. Must be purchased at Ticket Window or Season Pass Desk.
- Powder Alliance – 3 days of access at 11 other Western Resorts (some restrictions).
- Ski Bus Pass (one-time $5 service charge).
- "New" Discounts on room rates at the Grand America & Little America Hotels (on a space available basis).

And, of course, unlimited lift access for the 2014/15 season.  Anything like that in golf for Millenials? 


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #118 on: July 26, 2014, 01:49:51 PM »
"Golf" is not missing out, the millesimals are.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2014, 01:55:03 PM »
"Golf" is not missing out, the millesimals are.

Amen
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #120 on: July 26, 2014, 09:13:22 PM »
Anything like that in golf for Millenials?  


Nobody on GCA listens, but Maine golf also throws in the beach club too:

http://www.harrisgolfonline.com/newsletters/nines2014newmemberpacket.pdf






PS - Not a beef, Snowbasin is a kick ass ski area....

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #121 on: July 26, 2014, 10:41:00 PM »
"Millennials" would appear to refer to a generation now aged between 15 and 35. Should it really come as a surprise that not many of these people are playing golf?

Most avid golfers I know did not play a lot of golf at this age either. Even those like myself who got a taste for the game as a kid do not generally play much golf through their young adult years; there are just so many factors conspiring against mass participation for this cohort.

Getting a career established, chasing women, serious socialising, etc etc consume all the time available at this age. Golf is a colossal commitment in terms of both time and money; a commitment most young men are just not able or willing to make.

And then the kids come along...

The role of the father in most young families today is unrecognisable from that of only thirty years ago. He is (quite rightly) expected to play a much greater part in parenting his kids than in the past. Disappearing to the golf club for half a day on Saturday and Sunday is just not realistic any more for most young fathers. Neither is justifying £1000+ a year in membership fees plus the same again in equipment and consumables at a time when finances are inevitably stretched.

Those young fathers who do manage to negotiate a weekly dose of sporting activity away from their family are generally playing something else in their twenties and thirties. Here in  the UK that means either football (soccer) or rugby. The time to recruit these guys into golf is when their footballing career is nearing an end and they want or need to replace it with something new.

Of course there are exceptions, but in very general terms golf is an activity for middle-aged men.

When the Millennials enter middle-age I see no reason why a sufficient proportion of them will not be bitten by the golf bug. All the game has to do is wait for the twenty and thirty-somethings to grow up and then grab them!



« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 04:02:00 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2014, 03:43:27 PM »
Duncan - I think you're onto something.

I've been playing since I was 17 (I'm 54 now).  But until I was > 30, played exclusively public/municipal courses and probably wasn't on anyone's golfing radar.  I went private (Riverside in Portland, OR) - it cost me a lot, but it was worth it because I could finally play 18 in under 4 hours.   Lord knows I didn't join for the dining.

In fact, I think that separating the dining business from the golf business would do nothing but grow the game of golf and attract millenials.  Why would one of them want a monthly minimum for average food and slow service?


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #123 on: July 27, 2014, 04:32:00 PM »
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that there is no place in golf for young guys in their 20s and 30s. I see these people every day at my local driving range or at my own club as paying visitors.

What I do not see is 'millennials' being members of golf clubs. And what I am saying is that if golf clubs see this age group as being vital to the game's future then they are pissing in the wind.

Young guys flirt with golf, and then get serious about it when circumstances allow. That, in this day and age, is when they reach the age of 35 -55.

Interestingly, several former junior members of my club have recently taken up the game again and re-joined after many years absence. Now in their late thirties and early forties, they have not picked up a golf club in twenty years. They are now amongst the keenest players we have and have to a man regained their former single figure handicaps in a matter of weeks.

As juniors all those years ago they almost certainly cost the club money. Only now in early middle age are they contributors.


« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 04:48:06 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #124 on: July 27, 2014, 05:09:00 PM »
Duncan,

Certainly you're on to something and I was already convinced this was all a storm in a teacup.

Certainly at 37 I fit the category you refer to at your club. I played avidly as a junior, put my clubs down when I moved away to university at 18 and didn't really pick them up again until 4 years ago. Now I've rejoined the club I grew up at and they can finally make some money out of me. Those junior years, while not profitable for the club at the time, cemented the place as 'home.'
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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