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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 09:47:53 PM »
Sven:

That's true, but only five years ago there was another perfect storm, with several firms approaching Ross' annual output, and plenty of others who were welcome to try.

I sure as hell couldn't have done what Ross did.  Other talented architects passed on the chance.  And none of the guys who were building 25 courses a year came anywhere close to Ross' consistent design quality [with apologies to Jim Lipe if I am bursting his bubble :) ]. 

Tom:

Someone (perhaps Mike Young) made the point about Ross that he ran a business, not a design shop.  It is even more amazing to me that he was able to turn out the quality he did with the model he used.  Perhaps when things get humming again you should mimic his tempo and distance for a year or two.  Would be interesting to see if you could replicate his results.

All the best,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 09:53:27 PM »
Tom:

Someone (perhaps Mike Young) made the point about Ross that he ran a business, not a design shop.  It is even more amazing to me that he was able to turn out the quality he did with the model he used.  Perhaps when things get humming again you should mimic his tempo and distance for a year or two.  Would be interesting to see if you could replicate his results.

All the best,

Sven

I'm sure I would make more money that way, but I would have less fun in the process.

If it does get humming again, I think I will mimic MacKenzie's model ... spend a few days on site, do a routing, walk through it with a talented associate, leave them to build it, and receive most of the credit when it turned out great.  :)

The problem is, most clients believe the most critical part is for me to keep coming back, just to take the course from 93% of what it could be to 98 or 99%.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 10:46:24 PM »
Tom:

Someone (perhaps Mike Young) made the point about Ross that he ran a business, not a design shop.  It is even more amazing to me that he was able to turn out the quality he did with the model he used.  Perhaps when things get humming again you should mimic his tempo and distance for a year or two.  Would be interesting to see if you could replicate his results.

All the best,

Sven

I'm sure I would make more money that way, but I would have less fun in the process.

If it does get humming again, I think I will mimic MacKenzie's model ... spend a few days on site, do a routing, walk through it with a talented associate, leave them to build it, and receive most of the credit when it turned out great.  :)

The problem is, most clients believe the most critical part is for me to keep coming back, just to take the course from 93% of what it could be to 98 or 99%.

Well, MacKenzie did have that line about hiring the village idiot to do the greens.  Perhaps that's how you get past 99% to a full 100%, although I can imagine it would be tough to talk your client's into using that model.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 10:52:18 PM »
Just my 2 cents, but I see Maxwell as the hardest of the golden age architects to pigeon hole while Ross is one of the easiest.  Maxwell's portfolio was relatively small, often involved collaborations or remodels and so much of it is either gone altogether or has been irreversibly altered beyond recognition from what he designed.  On the other hand, Ross' body of work is enormous, almost always solely attributable to the man himself (at least with respect to the routing) and in many cases has been brought back to life through recent thoughtful restoration.  It just makes it very difficult to compare the two - or, for that matter, Maxwell with any of the other ODGs.  

I will say this, I think Maxwell took more chances than Ross did.  I doubt Ross would have ever designed the cliff hole at Dornick Hills.  And while Ross is rightfully acknowledged as a routing genius, I challenge anyone who has seen Prairie Dunes or Old Town to question Maxwell's skill in that area.

Tom Doak, I agree that it is silly to give Maxwell full credit for Crystal Downs.  It is equally risky in my opinion to suggest that the routing was all Dr. Mac.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2014, 12:02:31 AM »

Tom Doak, I agree that it is silly to give Maxwell full credit for Crystal Downs.  It is equally risky in my opinion to suggest that the routing was all Dr. Mac.


Ed:  I liked the rest of your post above.  Good points all.

As for routing credit, I suppose that it's rare that anyone should receive "all" the credit for a routing.  There are usually other people giving input in the process somewhere along the way. 

We really don't know how involved Maxwell was in the routing for Crystal Downs ... there is that story that he changed 17 and 18, but no one has ever seen a map to back it up.  However, all I said was that Maxwell did not do the routing for Crystal Downs, and I don't think there is anyone who believes he did all of it, or even 50%.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2014, 12:55:52 AM »
Tom, I can live with that.  My only concern is that some will interpret the statement that Maxwell "did not do the routing for Crystal Downs" to mean that he had nothing to do with the routing.  As you know, according to Walkley Ewing's first hand account, "He [MacKenzie] and Maxwell worked almost around the clock until they had laid down holes and torn them up and laid them down again, emerging finally with the eighteen hole layout that we know today."  While I have seen nothing to suggest that Maxwell deserves primary credit for Crystal's routing, I also don't think his involvement in that process can be discounted.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 01:00:17 AM by Ed Oden »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2014, 10:48:15 AM »
For me, Ross is the greatest embodiment of the Golden Age. He's sort of like the "American" Old Tom Morris in a sense. His designs have wonderful playing qualities and a generally classic presentation, and the routings flow effortlessly. More than anything, his designs have functional architecture. Each hole has a sound and interesting strategy that comes into play for a diverse range of skill and handicap, and his features are bold and commanding if not especially ornate. For me, his work calls to mind Woody Guthrie or Hank Williams - there's a simplicity in the artistry but a brilliance underlying the construction and function.

Maxwell's portfolio is less prolific. It's also more uneven, likely due to several factors both within and beyond his control. His work, at its worst, is mundane (see: Kentucky Dam Village). At its best, his work is transcendent. He was able to blend the functionality of Ross with an artistry that Ross simply couldn't match or didn't care for. That artistry gives his best works a post-modern feeling, and his best courses have a feeling of being "before their time." If you could find a well-traveled golfer who was somehow oblivious to places like Crystal Downs, Augusta National, or Prairie Dunes, I think you could easily convince him that those courses were built in the last ten years based on the quality and artistry underlying their presentation.

Of course, Maxwell doesn't deserve all the credit for those courses, and attribution is a final challenge with his work. He was certainly reliant on collaboration on many of his best courses. When I combine that fact with the fact that he had many mundane moments to go with some phenomenally transcendent ones, it leads me to compare his work to Tina Turner's - an artist with some dull moments who was heavily reliant on collaborators like Ike and Phil Spector (and even John Fogerty), but whose best moments simply redefine how we measure brilliance.

As for which I prefer, I've always loved Hank Williams' catalog, and I would likewise say that Ross is my preferred designer based simply on his consistency. I must admit, however, that if I had 45 minutes to listen to either a collection of Hank's best work or "River Deep Mountain High" followed by 40 minutes of silence, I'd probably choose the latter. Likewise, I might rather play one round at one of Maxwell's top efforts than 10 rounds on a collection of Ross' finest.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2014, 11:08:14 AM »
This might be fun and add to the thread.

Here's my list of 5 favorite Ross and Maxwell's (only played two Maxwells)

1...Pinehurst #2
2...Prairie Dunes
3...Crystal Downs
4...Old Elm
5...Seminole
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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