Perry Maxwell or Donald Ross?

[William_G]

What style of design do you prefer?

eg, Old Town or Charlotte Country Club/Carolina Golf Club? or is this splitting hairs as to the architect.

Is it more the period of design or the architect?

[J_ Crisham]

Or Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs versus Pinehurst? Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs is my preference. But it is splitting hairs.

[Bill_McBride]

At GolfClubAtlas, splitting hairs R US. 

[Nigel Islam]

I love old school courses, but I just like Perry Maxwell, Raynor, and MacKenzie over Ross.  I don't really know why though

[Mike Hendren]

The question pre-supposes that their design styles are definable and static.  I wish I was smart enough to have figured that out.  To all, what are the three most obvious elements of each architect's design style?

Use this format:

Ross (for me)
1.  Routing efficiency
2.  Par defended at and around the green (hard par / easy bogey) i.e., playability.
3.  Greens often sited just before the crest of a hill or high point to high point hole routing..

Maxwell (not familiar enough with his work).
1.
2.
3.

Then answer the question.

Boges

[J_ Crisham]

Ross was a genius with  small properties- think of Wannamoisette and Beverly.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I definitely prefer both. Thanks.

[William_G]

I definitely prefer both. Thanks.

I guess that's it, LOL

[Jon Cavalier]

I love old school courses, but I just like Perry Maxwell, Raynor, and MacKenzie over Ross.  I don't really know why though

+1

[Craig Van Egmond]

Put me firmly in the Perry Maxwell court.


"It is my theory that nature must precede the architect, in the laying out of links. It is futile to attempt the transformation of wholly inadequate acres into an adequate course. Invariably the result is the inauguration of an earthquake. The site of a golf course should be there, not brought there."

Perry Maxwell

[Tim Gavrich]

I like every Donald Ross course I've played, but I don't see myself liking any Ross course more than Old Town. Mountain Ridge and Timuquana are probably the top two Ross courses I've played so far, and I give Old Town the edge over both. While the greens on those two Ross courses are treacherous, interesting and a lot of fun to play, I found Old Town's to have more variety of size and shape, plus I found the general aesthetic of "Maxwell Rolls" to be slightly more engaging than the green contours at those two (also excellent) courses.

[Dave_Miller]

Or Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs versus Pinehurst? Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs is my preference. But it is splitting hairs.

Jack
You're always splitting something but usually it's teeth

[J_ Crisham]

Or Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs versus Pinehurst? Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs is my preference. But it is splitting hairs.

Jack
You're always splitting something but usually it's teeth

Dave Miller- how the hell are you? Just remember every tooth is one closer to retirement!

[Mike Hendren]

Notwithstanding the numerous outstanding renovations/restorations of Ross courses in the past decade, I'm not sure he'll ever be the "it" guy with this cohort or any other.  Since he's the most famous golden age architect among the masses the cognoscenti seem to consider almost anyone else de rigueur.  Those silly masses!

I find Ross' architecture practical.  The fact that he did not find it necessary to oversee every element of construction (and admittedly in some cases none at all) says a lot about his view of golf course architecture.  I get the impression that he was satisfied with golf courses that were "good enough" with a sensible routing getting you pretty far along down that path.  I can't help but believe that he loved the game itself more than its playing fields.  That's not to imply at all that there is not greatness in many of his designs.  

Given his background one might assume his practicality also reflected the fact that he had one eye on future maintenance costs.

His work was efficient and generally bereft of ornamentation.  Perhaps this reflected contraint or some form of minimalism but perhaps it was simply a matter of designing just enough architecture to accomodate the game he knew and loved - and no more.  That's not to say he didn't generally sprinkle in a little quirk.  The diagonal mounds crossing Holston Hills' 15th fairway, Lulu's dell, the occasional volcano one shotter and the 5th green at Glens Falls are among numerous examples.  

The beauty of his courses are in their ostensible simple and straight forward presentation which in reality dull's one senses to the point that the subtle nuances exact paper cuts and steal half strokes.  At the same time the middle and high handicapper are permitted to move along oblivious to such details.  Think about this: how often do you have to re-load on a Ross course?

Perhaps Ross could have cared less about heroic ocean carries, wild and wooly natives, heaving land or bulldozed features.  Ask yourself this:   What would Ross have done with the land upon which Cyrpress Point was designed and what in turn would any of his contemporaries done with the sand hills of North Carolina.

I have him and Colt just a notch above everybody else.  The former from experience, the latter from photographs, my day at Sunningdale and Paul Turner's tutelage.

Cheers ya'll.

Boges

[Jim Hoak]

Those of you that are giving Maxwell credit for Crystal Downs, how can you ignore that Maxwell was pretty much just executing on what MacKenzie conceived?   I know there has been a thread on credit for Crystal Downs--and I know the answer is that both MacKenzie and Maxwell get partial credit.  But how you allocate this credit may answer your question.
I have not played Prairie Dunes (first on my list of great courses where I want to next play), but I know that Maxwell only did 9 holes there, so, based on the many Ross courses I have played and the few Maxwell ones, I come down to saying that Ross is the superior conceiver of great courses.

[Jay Flemma]

I prefer Maxwell.  The green complexes are just as good, the bunkering slightly more interesting, (the influence of Mack helps greatly) and the routings a little more interesting.

But you are asking us to compare a chateaubriand with a double porterhouse:)

[Jason Topp]

I generally prefer Ross greens to Maxwell greens, based on limited exposure to Maxwell courses based on the way the greens putt.

This is obviously a gross overgeneralization:

I find the double breaks on Maxwell greens confounding whereas Ross greens (although they can be very difficult) seem to have slopes that are more decipherable and feel more natural. Every time I have a 10 foot putt on a Maxwell green, it seems to break early and then in a different direction near the hole. 

On a Ross course, you usually can identify the good and bad spots to hit an approach shot.  I am not sure one can do that as easily on the Maxwell courses I have played.

[Dave_Miller]

Or Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs versus Pinehurst? Prairie Dunes/Crystal Downs is my preference. But it is splitting hairs.

Jack
You're always splitting something but usually it's teeth

Dave Miller- how the hell are you? Just remember every tooth is one closer to retirement!

Jack
Doing just fine.  Hope you are well.  I thought with the recession it was 2 teeth to get closer to retirement.

[Ronald Montesano]

1 vote for splitting hairs.

I think that Al Mac's best is better than Ross' best, but that may be due to the land the former was given.

I think a really viable comparison would be Pinehurst #2 with Royal Melbourne. Both are inland links courses, so I would suspect that those with experience on both (I don't know Mel...I'll never be royals) could declare.

[Sean_A]

Interesting question.  I suspect Maxwell generally did more adventurous routings and more adventurous greens than Ross.  That, however doesn't necessarily mean better, just more or less preferable.  However, the work of Ross is very elegant in its efficiency - very much like Colt in that regard.  One aspect which distorts the comparison is the difference in sheer output of work.  Its impossible to keep every course fresh when there are as many as Ross was involved with.  I need both archies because they offer different insights into design.

Ciao 

[Andy Troeger]

If I just look at my list of courses played, my answer to this question is easy: Maxwell wins. I like Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, and Old Town better than any Ross I've played. Southern Hills only loses out to Pinehurst #2. Case closed.

However, one could argue that Crystal Downs genius came from AM (not saying it did/didn't). Prairie Dunes has nine holes designed by Press Maxwell. Old Town's recent restoration is much better than many of the less sympathetic restorations to Ross courses over the years. And I haven't played any Maxwell courses other than that handful that is considered his best work.

I'd probably still favor Maxwell, just because I've played enough Ross designs to know that his strength came at the green end, and I don't love that approach if it means the rest of the course is just "good." Almost all of the Ross courses I've played make the top half of my list and certainly qualify as good courses, but none really make my elite list of favorites.

[Tom_Doak]

1 vote for splitting hairs.

I think a really viable comparison would be Pinehurst #2 with Royal Melbourne. Both are inland links courses, so I would suspect that those with experience on both (I don't know Mel...I'll never be royals) could declare.

OK ... I know both courses pretty well.  And I gave them both 10's on the Doak scale.  Split that however you want!

I admire the work of both men.  And I've always said, I prefer to rate courses, not architects.

I think it's generally correct that Ross's strength was efficiency of routings ... which also enabled him to crank out so many more designs.  Maxwell did not have to worry about that so much, as a lot of his work was on bigger properties in less highly-developed parts of America.  He did not do the routing for Crystal Downs, so it's silly to give him full credit for that course.

Maxwell tended to defend his greens from the inside more than the outside.  He did not do as much fairway bunkering as Ross, perhaps because the greens were so well defended.

Saying one was better than the other seems pointless to me.  Both were great talents.

All that said, I think there are a few people working in the business today who are comparable to Perry Maxwell.  But there is absolutely no one whose work is comparable in quantity and quality to that of Donald Ross.

[Mac Plumart]

I've only played two Maxwells, Prairie Dunes and Crystal Downs. And they are off the chain good.

I've played a lot of Ross'. They are all, at a minimum, very good.


It's a win win with either pick. But even the lesser Ross course have been good. I'll take Ross as there is no risk.

[Sven Nilsen]

1 vote for splitting hairs.

I think a really viable comparison would be Pinehurst #2 with Royal Melbourne. Both are inland links courses, so I would suspect that those with experience on both (I don't know Mel...I'll never be royals) could declare.

OK ... I know both courses pretty well.  And I gave them both 10's on the Doak scale.  Split that however you want!

I admire the work of both men.  And I've always said, I prefer to rate courses, not architects.

I think it's generally correct that Ross's strength was efficiency of routings ... which also enabled him to crank out so many more designs.  Maxwell did not have to worry about that so much, as a lot of his work was on bigger properties in less highly-developed parts of America.  He did not do the routing for Crystal Downs, so it's silly to give him full credit for that course.

Maxwell tended to defend his greens from the inside more than the outside.  He did not do as much fairway bunkering as Ross, perhaps because the greens were so well defended.

Saying one was better than the other seems pointless to me.  Both were great talents.

All that said, I think there are a few people working in the business today who are comparable to Perry Maxwell.  But there is absolutely no one whose work is comparable in quantity and quality to that of Donald Ross.

That being said, no one working today has the benefit of drumming up business during the perfect storm that was the Golden Age.

[Tom_Doak]

Sven:

That's true, but only five years ago there was another perfect storm, with several firms approaching Ross' annual output, and plenty of others who were welcome to try.

I sure as hell couldn't have done what Ross did.  Other talented architects passed on the chance.  And none of the guys who were building 25 courses a year came anywhere close to Ross' consistent design quality [with apologies to Jim Lipe if I am bursting his bubble ].