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Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2014, 07:08:01 AM »
You're definitely not an idiot for going to Forest Dunes, well worth the trip.  That is a ton of driving though!  Enjoy that haul from Arcadia to Jackson ;-)   

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2014, 07:41:12 AM »
Great to see the concept of a reversible course being used in NA, and especially by TD.
Interesting to see that Tom has warmed up to the concept of reversibility since we last discussed it here on GCA in 2012:

it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other.  But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior.  So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course.  A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53521.0.html


With construction starting on the 9 holes reversible course Ullerberg begin of 2015 we might see two reversible courses opening in 2016, quite unique!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 07:45:49 AM by Frank Pont »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2014, 09:25:54 AM »
Great to see the concept of a reversible course being used in NA, and especially by TD.
Interesting to see that Tom has warmed up to the concept of reversibility since we last discussed it here on GCA in 2012:

it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other.  But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior.  So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course.  A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.


Frank:

I have been kicking the idea around for 25-30 years, ever since I read the appendix to Tom Simpson's book.

As I said before, the issue was always to find the right site [relatively flat and sandy], and the right client [not overly focused on making the "best" possible course].  When we worked on The Sheep Ranch, our client Mr. Friedman kept asking what would be the "ideal" routing, when to my view, sorting out an ideal routing would limit the possibilities there.

At Forest Dunes, the goal is to get people to stay there and play multiple rounds.  Most people see a ranked course as the means to that end -- they already have one -- but we are trying a different avenue.  It may well preclude the possibility of getting the course ranked -- how would GOLF DIGEST panelists break down the Shot Values?  Plus we'll get low points in Memorability because it will be difficult to remember the clockwise routing from the counter-clockwise.  Nevertheless, I am excited to build a project I've spent many years doodling on.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2014, 10:16:13 AM »
Tom,

Cool, good to see you have gotten to the point where you can afford to get away from rankings and follow your heart!

Interesting to see that Simpson's appendix did exactly the same to me, other than that you beat me to it by some 15-20 years :)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 10:18:57 AM by Frank Pont »

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2014, 09:05:26 PM »
Great to see the concept of a reversible course being used in NA, and especially by TD.
Interesting to see that Tom has warmed up to the concept of reversibility since we last discussed it here on GCA in 2012:

it's not inevitable that playing the course in one direction has to be better than the other.  But, if they're really equal, it is most likely because you compromised somewhere ... letting one of the best holes be played backwards on the "forward" course so that the forward course wouldn't be clearly superior.  So, if you are trying to make the course as great as it can be, it's hard to take this approach ... it's really only for somewhere that you can't try to make a high-ranked course.  A nine-hole project seems like an excellent place to try it.


Tom,

I beg to differ. I the holes are really GOOD, people will remember them, no matter the routing on that particular day!

Frank:

I have been kicking the idea around for 25-30 years, ever since I read the appendix to Tom Simpson's book.

As I said before, the issue was always to find the right site [relatively flat and sandy], and the right client [not overly focused on making the "best" possible course].  When we worked on The Sheep Ranch, our client Mr. Friedman kept asking what would be the "ideal" routing, when to my view, sorting out an ideal routing would limit the possibilities there.

At Forest Dunes, the goal is to get people to stay there and play multiple rounds.  Most people see a ranked course as the means to that end -- they already have one -- but we are trying a different avenue.  It may well preclude the possibility of getting the course ranked -- how would GOLF DIGEST panelists break down the Shot Values?  Plus we'll get low points in Memorability because it will be difficult to remember the clockwise routing from the counter-clockwise.  Nevertheless, I am excited to build a project I've spent many years doodling on.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2014, 12:29:14 AM »

At Forest Dunes, the goal is to get people to stay there and play multiple rounds.  Most people see a ranked course as the means to that end -- they already have one -- but we are trying a different avenue.  It may well preclude the possibility of getting the course ranked -- how would GOLF DIGEST panelists break down the Shot Values?  Plus we'll get low points in Memorability because it will be difficult to remember the clockwise routing from the counter-clockwise.  Nevertheless, I am excited to build a project I've spent many years doodling on.

The answer is for the golf mags to treat the course as two separate courses.  Rank both of them.  I think most of the various issues sort themselves out.  Even the greens should appear different, since players will approach them from totally different angles/directions.

Tom, will this concept affect the way you design the greens? 



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2014, 09:12:23 AM »

The answer is for the golf mags to treat the course as two separate courses.  

I suppose that's what GOLF DIGEST will do, because they're narrow thinkers.  I would disagree with that approach.  When they rate other courses, is not a big part of the ranking how the course varies from one day to the next?  To just ignore the fact that the course is reversible misses the whole point.  So, hopefully different magazines will have different answers to that question ... but, as I said earlier, we can't count on rankings here.

Certainly, the greens will be somewhat different than the normal course, though there are many styles of greens that still work when approached from different angles.  Crowned greens work.  Fallaway greens work fine backwards.  Greens tilted to one side work.  Greens with sideways tiers work.  Greens with internal contours work.  And it will be cool to have a hole or two where the green is long and skinny from one angle, but wide and shallow when approach from 90 degrees on the reverse routing [there are a few corners like that].

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2014, 09:30:40 AM »
Tom,

To me, it seems like designing a reversible course would be the pinnacle of design.  Do you look at it like that?  To make the land and course work so that it's a fun, challenging and interesting course in both directions just seems like an immense challenge and one I'm sure you (and Frank) are looking forward to tackling.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2014, 09:59:17 AM »
Tom,

To me, it seems like designing a reversible course would be the pinnacle of design.  Do you look at it like that?  To make the land and course work so that it's a fun, challenging and interesting course in both directions just seems like an immense challenge and one I'm sure you (and Frank) are looking forward to tackling.

I don't think there is a pinnacle of design.  But as I said, it's a challenge I've thought about for a long time, and I look forward to tackling it now that we have a client who's on board.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2014, 10:39:05 AM »
As a GD panelist, I would think it be even more memorable to be able to play it in reverse. Just a thought.
Mr Hurricane

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Project
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2014, 10:45:36 AM »
 8) was at FD 2 weeks ago and saw the fairway clearing along the entrance road with trees piled, and a small dozer in waiting.. folks were very tight-lipped about plans, other than owner was there for a week..





FD a pleasure anytime and only a little bit out in nowhere first time you go there.. then its a short ride from Grayling!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 10:48:46 AM by Steve Lang »
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