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Matthew Mollica

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Reversible Courses
« on: August 21, 2003, 07:59:53 AM »

We all know that St Andrews Old can be played in reverse... How many other courses boast this ability? I imagine it would be very few.

Have many architects out there purpose-designed a course that can be played equally as well in one direction, as it could be played, in reverse? Has this ever been a primary design philosophy?

Such a course would be great fun to play, and design for that matter.

Although the costs would increase (a few extra tees, and so on), constructing a course that would play very well in both directions, could be more economical to maintain, in terms of minimising wear and tear on typical landing areas, through rotating the direction of play.

Looking forward to your answers.....

Matthew
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tom_Doak

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2003, 11:16:21 AM »
I actually suggested that for Texas Tech, since the property was entirely flat to start with.  (Hilly property will inevitably lead to blind shots on a reversible course.)

My idea was not to tell anyone it was reversible until the morning of the first intercollegiate match, and then go out and set it up backwards and see what those kids are made of!

Sadly, they didn't go for my idea.  They wanted more than a golf course, they wanted a beautiful place to play golf, and in the reversible concept playability has to trump esthetics.  One of these days, I'll find the right property to tinker with it.
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John_Conley

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2003, 11:24:37 AM »
Double Eagle.

I've heard Goldstrand also may have done a reversible 3rd nine for Fox Hollow.
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Mike Hendren

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2003, 12:07:07 PM »
The most recent Armchair Architect contest from Golf Digest required the routing and design of three holes that by necessity required triangulation.  My three were reversible, though I did not submit an application given the fee that was obviously intended to suppress the number of applications.  

My short hole was a redan which also received the second shot on a short par four from approximately two o'clock.  

Question:  How often have you looked at a golf hole only to think it would have been better in reverse?

Mike
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Matthew Mollica

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2003, 08:37:06 AM »
Tom,

How did those at Texas Tech feel that the aesthetics would suffer with a reversible course?

How would you approach the task of designing green complexes for a reversible course? Would you have a number of shared greens? Obviously flat terrain is more suited as you said - greens perched on slopes might be too hard to access from a wide array of angles.

With this concept of reversible courses, the area behind the green would no doubt get far more design attention. It would be great if that permeated into design of more courses in future...

Matthew
« Last Edit: August 22, 2003, 08:40:43 AM by MatthewM »
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"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

John_Conley

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2003, 10:35:18 AM »
Shiv:

Double Eagle.

I doubt many have played it as it is pretty remote.
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Chris_Blakely

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2003, 11:52:59 AM »
Pocantico Hills which was designed and built by Flynn in 1937 for John D. Rockefeller Jr.  I believe the course has 11 greens and plays out 9 and returns back.  If you use the search option there was been some discussion on this course.
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2003, 09:47:52 PM »
Kyle Phillips has designed a 9-hole reversible course. The routing plan is in my book. Cannot say whether it was ever constructed.
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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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Jeremy_Glenn.

Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2003, 10:09:03 PM »
Call me crazy, but if I ever designed a course that was reversible, I'd make sure that it's name was a palindrome!  ;D
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2003, 11:43:15 AM »
Matthew:

The Texas Tech people didn't say anything about the reversibility ruining the aesthetics.  I just figured it would, and the aesthetics were important to them.

On a reversible course you generally cannot build any visual backgrounds for the greens, because in the reverse design you would have to approach them OVER the backgrounds.  Now, that may work fine when the view in the background is the Eden estuary or the town of St. Andrews, or simply trees or desert, but it doesn't work so good when the background is the University Hospital and parking lot, or the Boys Club of Lubbock.

There are some types of greens and hole designs that don't lend themselves to a reversible course, too, and I think a lot of people might assume that means you're giving up too much in the way of variety within the course.  However, I've thought it through and I believe you would still have a large enough palette of ideas to design an excellent course both ways around.  St. Andrews is a pretty good example, but I think you could come up with something that's better than the left-handed course at St. Andrews.
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Paul_Turner

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2003, 12:21:09 PM »
Walter Travis wrote aticles in The American Golfer showing that Pine Valley was going to be a reversible course-in 1916/7.  He stated that this was what George Crump planned and he/they drew the reverse holes in the magazine.

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Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2003, 02:13:49 PM »
Forrest,
Unfortunately Kyle's reversible course hasn't been built.  And probably won't be for a while.
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Willie_Dow

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2003, 05:59:00 PM »
Chris Blakely

Pocantico Hills by Flynn in 1937 is but one of Flynn's designs which were reversible.  Wayne Morrison has found other Flynn treasures which offer this concept in design.

My own feeling is that a reversible course is the optimum utilization of land, especially flat land, as it offers a view of the surrounds from many angles of play.

Willie
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2003, 06:12:37 PM »
P_Turner,

Wouldn't that necesitate the course being internally treeless ?
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Willie_Dow

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Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2003, 12:48:59 PM »
Patrick

Pocantico Hills certainly is not treeless, and the landscape shouts for interesting golf shots.

By the way if anyone tried to email me via my website it didn't get through.

Willie
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2003, 05:07:40 PM »
Willie Dow,

But, that course, like TOC doesn't have 18 greens with 14 holes playing to the same greens.

Without the benefit of double greens, it would seem that a course would have to be void of trees in order to make this work.
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HamiltonBHearst

Re:Reversible Courses
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2003, 06:32:29 PM »
At Pocantico it is the art work that you have to watch out for and it can be a hazard in both directions.  ;D Perhaps, I will see if I can get a small group out to visit the course if interest warrents it.
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David Schofield

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Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2008, 07:35:36 AM »
My apologies for unearthing a long-dead thread, but Tom Doak's reply on the "On Naturalism: Zero-Depth Bunkers" thread prompted me to search for previous discussions regarding reversible courses. 

New Richmond (WI) Country Club sports a "traditional" 18 hole golf course and a reversible 9-hole course.  The reversible course is reversed once a week.  My recollection is that there are 8 shared greens and 2 single greens (9 and "18").  Unfortunately, Google Maps still has a poor quality aerial photo for the area and the course's website is severely lacking.
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Kevin Atkinson

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Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2008, 08:01:02 AM »
I recently toured a new course in Driggs, Idaho that 17 of the 18 holes are reversible.  While I think the course will "officially" open for play in 2008, they did allow limited play in fall of 2007.  The course was designed by Hale Irwin and the website is www.tetonreserve.com.  I found the idea inspirational as I have played with out of the box ideas for clients in the past.
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David Schofield

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Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2008, 08:14:05 AM »
Kevin,

The website says there 4 playable "courses" built into the course.  During your visit, did they make any mention of this?  Their master plan seems to have the clearest depiction of the routing but I guess I'm missing the 3rd and 4th routings...
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wsmorrison

Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2008, 08:15:21 AM »
Bill Dow and I drove around the property that was once the estate of Robert K. Cassatt, President of the Pennsylvania Rail Road, member of the Merion Cricket Club and nephew of painter Mary Cassatt.  The design was submitted in November 1929, so  it was surely proposed amidst a lot of turmoil and may not have been built.  If it was built, it was probably kept very private as the nation was in no mood to see such extravagance in others while many were losing their homes.



Here is Flynn's design for the 13 green (one is a double green), 18 hole golf course at Pocantico Hills.  For those that have been there, can you make out a few of the small differences in the way the course plays today and this layout?



It is possible to speculate about the direction Flynn was exploring and the influence it would have had on future architects given the kind of work he was doing at the ontset of the Depresssion.   Such designs as the estate course for Cassatt, Pocantico Hills and Shinnecock Hills give some idea as to the quality of his designs and the original thoughts he was implementing. 

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Tom_Doak

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Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2008, 08:55:58 AM »
Ultimately, a reversible design is only a gimmick unless there are a few holes which are better in one direction, and a few which are better than the other.  If that's not the case, then why play it the wrong way around?

I really enjoyed playing the "left-handed" Old Course at St. Andrews last year, but there were only 2-3 of the holes which could make a case for being better in reverse.  If we build the project I'm looking at now -- though it's 2-3 years away from construction in the best of circumstances -- we'll have to make sure the backwards loop is just as compelling.
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wsmorrison

Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2008, 09:21:25 AM »
Tom,

I think there are a number of ways that reversible courses aren't gimmicky, even if the resulting holes play considerably better in one direction.  Reversible courses when used on limited land can create a variety of routing progressions providing additional holes given limited play.  It sure beats walking back to the tee to play the hole again.  If the reversible play is over an elevation change, the holes play much differently and of course the wind direction is opposite as well.  The combination of wind and elevation differences allow for a great deal more variety in club selections.
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Kevin Atkinson

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Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2008, 09:28:48 AM »
David

I toured around with my good friend and director of grounds Scott Phelps along with one of the owners Clyde Clifford and they did not mention a 3rd or 4th different routing.  However, I know they have been making a number of design adjustments during the grow in of the course and they may have incorporated more tees that created a 3rd and 4th course...?
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Bill Gayne

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Re: Reversible Courses
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2008, 10:09:49 AM »
Travis originally designed the Westchester west course to be reversible. He was paid $3,000 for the original and received an additional $1,000 for a second course. The second course being the reverse of the first course. A course that could be played in both directions by enlarging the teeing ground as the target and positioning bunkers to influence play in both directions.

(Source: The Old Man by Bob Labbance)
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