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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
... when it comes to producing exciting tournaments?

Blather all you want about links golf, sandy soil, Ross, Coore & Crenshaw, firm and fast, and whatever other buzzwords turn you on. We've just watched two of the most boring tournaments I can recall in recent memory. Two courses that feature a bunch of holes that look nondescript on television with embarrassingly soft greens and narrowed fairways that have produced runaway wire-to-wire champions.

Say what you want about Valhalla, but it has consistently produced exciting tournaments in the past and I suspect it will again next month. Is there an architectural reason?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 09:45:41 PM »
Fooled by randomness.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Chris Oldham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 10:03:13 PM »
Perspective - two runaway leaders, but if you look at the tournament behind the leaders, very competitive, very exciting.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 10:34:58 PM »
Perhaps part of it is that Valhalla has some really good, diverse par 4s. I am still not sure that the USGA did Pinehurst #2 any favors by changing the tees around on the par 4s there.

For what it's worth two is going to be a par 4 next month(par 71), and they have mowed the heather down.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 11:27:17 PM »
J - the refrain from those down the leader board today was about missed opportunities. The conditions were benign (as Tiger noted) and the scoring chances were plentiful (as Phil noted), and those who are 10-15 shots back are the ones who haven't played quite well enough and/or haven't made the most of the potential birdies that the course offered. And yet, even setting Rory and his 16 under aside for a moment, there are a good number of golfers who are taking advantage of those chances -- golfers as different as short hitting Jim Furyk and bomber Dustin Johnson, and Garcia and Clarke and Fowler shooting 3 and 4 and 5 under pars over the past three days. All of which suggests that, while Hoylake is not a penal course or a particularly severe one (especially not for a major championship), the difference in results between a well struck shot and a mediocre one can be significant -- and this in turn means that a golfer playing top notch golf won't be artificially held back or hemmed in by the architecture and/or the maintenance, such that the scoring spread can and likely will be bigger/higher than it will be at Valhalla. In short, perhaps architecture that's more interesting and nuanced doesn't automatically lead to more exciting tournaments, especially if what we mean by exciting is having a whole bunch of golfers bunched together coming down the stretch on Sunday.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 11:50:28 PM by PPallotta »

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 11:29:04 PM »
Perhaps part of it is that Valhalla has some really good, diverse par 4s. I am still not sure that the USGA did Pinehurst #2 any favors by changing the tees around on the par 4s there.

For what it's worth two is going to be a par 4 next month(par 71), and they have mowed the heather down.

I played there Thursday. As expected, the course is in great shape. Some of the new tee boxes border on insanity. It's a good golf course if you play from an appropriate distance, it's a death march from too far back. However, that was the second time I've played it and it doesn't make my personal top 10.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2014, 11:53:33 PM »
Fooled by randomness.

Yeah, this is small sample size and short memory all rolled up in one.

2006 at Hoylake was an intriguing tournament with a good leaderboard. 1999 at Pinehurst was incredible and 2005 had plenty of drama as well. Valhalla has hosted two memorable majors. These are ridiculously small sample size issues.

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 11:58:41 PM »
You're comparing the results of a tournament that hasn't concluded yet to a tournament that hasn't even been played yet?  Am I missing something?
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 12:54:59 AM »
You're comparing the results of a tournament that hasn't concluded yet to a tournament that hasn't even been played yet?  Am I missing something?

Greg,

I had the same response.
Tim Weiman

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 01:22:05 AM »
Perhaps part of it is that Valhalla has some really good, diverse par 4s. I am still not sure that the USGA did Pinehurst #2 any favors by changing the tees around on the par 4s there.

For what it's worth two is going to be a par 4 next month(par 71), and they have mowed the heather down.

I played there Thursday. As expected, the course is in great shape. Some of the new tee boxes border on insanity. It's a good golf course if you play from an appropriate distance, it's a death march from too far back. However, that was the second time I've played it and it doesn't make my personal top 10.

I think I would agree with that synopsis. I would assume one tee box you would be reffering to as 16 and another 17.  I would think 2 as a par 4 will play harder than even 6.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 01:42:11 AM »
The Open at Liverpool has already concluded by any practical measure. It'll pull a TV rating of less than 1 tomorrow. Its legacy as the most boring Open of the last twenty years is secure.

I'm predicting a more interesting tournament at Valhalla next month, and its superior entertainment value will be easily quantified by its superior TV ratings. Greg, Tim, what would you like to wager on the PGA Championship receiving a lower final round rating than either the US Open or Open Championship this year?

Nigel, I agree on the par 4s at Pinehurst suffering from USGA tee bastardization. Valhalla's biggest advantage over Pinehurst might be the fact that Mike Davis doesn't get to touch the course during the weeks leading up to the championship. I also think the penalty for missing certain shots at Valhalla is higher, which leads to a more interesting contrast between risk and reward and also keeps players honest. As much as we like to talk about the strategic merit of courses like Pinehurst or Hoylake, that strategy disappears quickly for world-class players hitting to soft targets. We like to think there's subtlety in those courses, but I'm not sure that holds true for the pros. With a lack of devastating trouble awaiting misses, players of that class are free to bomb it around and play aggressively and the player who's swinging best is able to separate himself from the rest of the field. A course like Valhalla with more trouble-spots awaiting certain misses and more ability to tuck pins in less accessible spots gives players a bit more pause and reduces the chance of someone just running away with it by swinging well all week, as the potential for big scoring swings is more of a factor after both well-executed shots and poorly judged ones.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 03:03:24 AM »
Jason - didn't the American kid level with McIlroy at one stage yesterday? Didn't he drop two shots in the last 5 holes? Did McIlroy have a birdie and two eagles plus a bogey in the last 5 holes? I assume you call exiciting Tiger winning every major he led going into the final round?

Remember Woods never charged and shot a 5 under final nine to win by a shot. That's what I'd call exciting.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 05:12:31 AM »
Jason

I am confused.  Are you saying the course produced a runaway leader which is boring to watch or that watching the players hit shots is boring to watch?  If you are bored by watching the shots then perhaps the Open isn't for you.  If you are bored because of what Rory is doing that has nothing to do with the course.  Sometimes great players are on and when they are a good set-up should allow for good scores.  Rory has missed a ton of putts, he could easily be 20 under par.  Same for Garcia, if that guy could putt he would be 20 under with Rory.  Both of these guys are hitting a ton of great shots and their recoveries (especially Rory) have been out of this world.  That said, this week it isn't taking as much skill as I would like for the players to shoot great scores, but thats life with the weather.  Weather is part and parcel of links golf and golf in general in the GB&I.  Courses trend with the weather rather than the maintenance ideal being to present the same course each day as we see in the US. 

Anyone that knows Hoylake knows how difficult the course is. Its remarkable to me how these guys can play.  But its equally remarkable how often they can pedestrian.  Take the greens for instance.  They aren't difficult and they aren't fast.  I am surprised at how many missed putts I am seeing and by wide margins.  A ton of guys are still not used to the slower speeds as loads of putts are coming up short.  I am also seeing players struggle with the bounce and run-out on approaches and the course is quite receptive.  Well to me, this is cool stuff to watch, but it may be because I know the course to some degree.  On tv, everything looks quite flat.  Sure, Hoylake isn't the hilliest of courses, but there is a lot more movement in the fairways than suggested on tv.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brent Hutto

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 05:31:56 AM »
I do have a lot of time for the theory that one could "protect par" against Tour players by simply not cutting and rolling the greens to provide the speeds they are used to. There have been a couple times lately where very nice, moderately fast greens (by most people's standards) have appeared to confound the best players in the world simply by not rolling around 12 on the Stimpmeter.

Instead of stretching a course to 7,200 yards and growing the rough you could probably produce the same scores by having them play it in a normal 6,700 yard setup but giving them the greens I putted on yesterday at a local public course. Average speed was probably 9-ish but some greens were a bit slower, some a bit faster and the grain in the Bermuda had to be experienced to be believed.

Seeing how "10.5" seems to add a stroke or two a round for these guys in the Open, playing a grainy and inconsistent set of greens at "9" would probably flummox them completely.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 05:35:46 AM »
I am thoroughly enjoying this Open... and thoroughly enjoying the course which is very near the top of my wish list to spend a couple of days and a few rounds at...

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2014, 05:55:22 AM »
Because golf on great golf courses just isn't that good on television. Sorry, but I've just never really been one for TV golf. The intricacies of a great course are completely lost on TV. Better viewing results at somewhere like Sawgrass. Maybe if 3D ever really takes off that'll change but, as things stand, no where that takes a life time to get your head round is going to appeal when viewed in 2D. Let's be honest here, The Belfry makes for a great Ryder Cup, at least as a TV spectacle. That says nothing about the quality of the course.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 07:28:55 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2014, 07:19:14 AM »
Most would think that Jason's comments are more of his trademark idiocy.

Not me. He's spot on. The last two majors have identified a couple of plodding journeymen in Kaymer and Mciroy. No one can seriously argue that these two are amongst the best in the world? The courses have the champions they deserve.

No, what we want is more battles between greats of the game, such as Kenny Perry and Mark Brooks.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2014, 08:00:22 AM »
Ryan couldn't agree more, I'd pay a kings ransom to see those two head to head.
Cave Nil Vino

BCowan

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2014, 08:41:01 AM »
Most would think that Jason's comments are more of his trademark idiocy.

Not me. He's spot on. The last two majors have identified a couple of plodding journeymen in Kaymer and Mciroy. No one can seriously argue that these two are amongst the best in the world? The courses have the champions they deserve.

No, what we want is more battles between greats of the game, such as Kenny Perry and Mark Brooks.

 ;D

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2014, 09:07:34 AM »
So does Bob May get a sponsor's exemption?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 09:19:04 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2014, 09:37:40 AM »
Is it heather or fescue, Nigel?
Coming in 2024
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Frank Giordano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2014, 11:07:24 AM »
Watching the magnificent golf shots performed by the leading players in this Open, it's hard to imagine what led to the creation of this thread.  The informing opinion suggests a kind of world-weariness, an over-satiation with the grandeur of which humans are capable.  It's as though one, who  had been watching Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, were to complain that his figures were too grotesque and cartoonish.  Or, on hearing Beethoven composing his fifth symphony, might object that his four note opening theme was a bit monotonous.  What does it take to satisfy some critics, when a magesterial display of power and accuracy on a splendid golf course seems boring?

Ivan Lipko

Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2014, 11:36:04 AM »
Frank,  I wholeheartedly agree with you, sir!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2014, 12:07:39 PM »
Because Valhalla is not as brown and firm as Pinehurst or as green and soft as Hoylake. It will be a Cinderella set up.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Valhalla so much better than Pinehurst and Hoylake...
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 12:26:51 PM »
I don't know about you guys, but I am having fun watching this!
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

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