[Tom_Doak]

Tom, the Dowie was changed quite a long time ago. There was no OB on the hole for the 1967 Open, and Cameron Sinclair later rebuilt the green.

I wrote a piece on the history of the hole a few years ago. http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/The-dumbing-down-of-Dowie/2088/Default.aspx#.U8rhu2K9KSM

You are correct that the Royal green was moved before the 2006 Open. With the green hard against the boundary fence spectators would have been unable easily to access the 18th/2nd hole.

Adam:

I played the Dowie in 1982 and 1985.  It hasn't been gone that long.  However, I didn't realize that they failed to honor the boundary for the Open in 1967.

[Mark Chaplin]

Frank - Littlestone is properly in the middle of nowhere and the club is seriously skint, at theoment they have no secretary and a group of members are running the club. Anyone can join and they are discounting hugely, they are going the way Adrian Stiff always warns clubs against.

Tom - where is the clamour for Deal, I live in the town and play there, no clamour from me. Deal is perfect for the Ladies or Senior Open or the Walker Cup. What the Open gives is financial security which may save the place you love. See previous paragraph.

[Josh Stevens]

Deal is the obvious as it has the length, the space (if they can use the paddocks over the road for hospitality), excellent transport links and is of course near London.  Sandwich is a great venue not so much for the course, but for the fact that it is accessible on a daily basis from London as they run express trains from St Pancras and you are there in an hour.  But isn't a great viewing venue being spread over such a huge area.  Deal would be amazing - St Andrews but with better greens, better viewing and better access.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Josh - RSG is one of the best for viewing. TOC is the absolute worst.

The question is what's the next course that could host the Open. Deal already has, so whilst it could house it again is it better than RSG and what are the plusses for doing it again? The only one I can see is that economically it would be good to go South East England once in 5 years and that might be too inconvienent for RSG.

[Josh Stevens]

I have been to two opens at RSG and wasn't overly impressed.  Yes there are some views here and there, but you have to cover a lot of area to see much. Deal is far more open, and IMO a better course.

So what do you need - good course, long course, good transport, nearby accommodation and lots of space for tented village.

Silloth is good but not long and lacks transport.  Hundstanton and Brancaster not up to it. Saunton as the space but is middle of nowhere. Burnham and Berrow maybe, but a bit hemmed in and very tight around the clubhouse end of the course.

Hillside maybe - is it long enough?

I think I have run out of links that are in the ballpark.. Would have to think Hillside and Saunton were the only contenders

[Adrian_Stiff]

My first post said None and I think that no course in England outside those that have currently ticks the boxes.

The course that ticks most boxes in England IMO is Saunton. It does have the accomodation aspects, the last 5 miles in are not good and the 30 miles from Motorway to Barnstaple are not good.

The problem with most courses is this "stretchability to 7200" most have been elasticated to 6800 as they are and there is no more to stretch. B & B starts with the fact they would need to lose 100 yards at the 1st hole to get the stands in for 18 and whilst there are a few places to add a bit, its a struggle to get to the 7000 with the room for stands. Maybe things will change and a better road will go to Saunton or the R & A will see that a course does not have to be 7200 to make the cut. What won't change is the economics of it all and that will always play a bit part in where it goes.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Saunton is too easy, needs a serious bunker scheme to combat the big boys. Terrible location. 

Burnham is too easy for the big boys.  The course would need to be drastically tightened with bunkering.  Where do folks go around the 18th?  I spose they could shoot for 15 as the finisher, but there isn't that much room around that green either.  The location near the motorway and Bristol isn't bad though. 

No for me, the only serious contenders in England could be Formby, Princes and Deal. None really bring anything to the table that isn't already there.  I spose Saunton because it West Country, but I think the R&A would go to Porthcawl first and call S Wales West Countryish.  If I had to pick one it would be Deal though.  Maybe Princes, but its hard to see how it would have that much support with strong clubs like Deal and Sandwich nearby, unless for some reason neither are willing to hold an Open. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - You are not reading what I have said.

[Ryan Coles]

Adrian

Saunton is too easy, needs a serious bunker scheme to combat the big boys. Terrible location. 

Burnham is too easy for the big boys.  The course would need to be drastically tightened with bunkering.  Where do folks go around the 18th?  I spose they could shoot for 15 as the finisher, but there isn't that much room around that green either.  The location near the motorway and Bristol isn't bad though. 

No for me, the only serious contenders in England could be Formby, Princes and Deal. None really bring anything to the table that isn't already there.  I spose Saunton because it West Country, but I think the R&A would go to Porthcawl first and call S Wales West Countryish.  If I had to pick one it would be Deal though.  Maybe Princes, but its hard to see how it would have that much support with strong clubs like Deal and Sandwich nearby, unless for some reason neither are willing to hold an Open. 

Ciao

Sean

I believe both Saunton and Burnham to be more difficult than Deal. This is borne out in the scoring of amateur events over the last 10-15 years.

Why add to the rota if the additions already have better courses in the vicinity on the rota?

Can't see any in England being up to it. Porthcawl maybe? Nairn? Maybe? both have had Amateurs and Walker Cup

[Ulrich Mayring]

St Enodoc is hard enough for The Open.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Adrian

Saunton is too easy, needs a serious bunker scheme to combat the big boys. Terrible location. 

Burnham is too easy for the big boys.  The course would need to be drastically tightened with bunkering.  Where do folks go around the 18th?  I spose they could shoot for 15 as the finisher, but there isn't that much room around that green either.  The location near the motorway and Bristol isn't bad though. 

No for me, the only serious contenders in England could be Formby, Princes and Deal. None really bring anything to the table that isn't already there.  I spose Saunton because it West Country, but I think the R&A would go to Porthcawl first and call S Wales West Countryish.  If I had to pick one it would be Deal though.  Maybe Princes, but its hard to see how it would have that much support with strong clubs like Deal and Sandwich nearby, unless for some reason neither are willing to hold an Open. 

Ciao

Sean

I believe both Saunton and Burnham to be more difficult than Deal. This is borne out in the scoring of amateur events over the last 10-15 years.

Why add to the rota if the additions already have better courses in the vicinity on the rota?

Can't see any in England being up to it. Porthcawl maybe? Nairn? Maybe? both have had Amateurs and Walker Cup

Ryan

Interesting.  Of course, comparing scoring of top AM events is a bit deceiving because of the weather.  For me, Princes and Deal are definitely more difficult than Burnham and Saunton, but the point is, there is a world of difference in quality between Brab/AM players and those in the Open.  Burnham would get eaten alive without twice as many bunkers and a guarantee of horrible rough.  Even then, I would guess -20 as the winner unless the wind blows.

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

True. But it is a better barometer than your gut.

Most Opens are mid teens under level 4's if the wind doesn't blow. 101 reasons why B&B and Saunton East couldn't host an Open. Playing difficulty isn't one of them.

[Sean_A]

Ryan

I usually find Burnham plenty hard, but I find it incredible that folks could believe that a sub 7000 yard, untricked up course with well under 50 bunkers is going to suitably challenge the best in the world.  We shall have to agree to disagree. 

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

Very few links courses challenge the best in the world if the wind doesn't blow and the course plays soft.  Royal Aberdeen for example last week was described as being brutally hard, penal rough, extremely narrow etc. Yet it was a birdie fest. 6900 to 7300 makes little difference in itself in terms of actual difficulty for the pros IMO.

[Thomas Dai]

Very few links courses challenge the best in the world if the wind doesn't blow and the course plays soft.  Royal Aberdeen for example last week was described as being brutally hard, penal rough, extremely narrow etc. Yet it was a birdie fest. 6900 to 7300 makes little difference in itself in terms of actual difficulty for the pros IMO.

Pretty accurate summary. Except for the Fri afternoon when the wind got up a bit, although not a lot, and the scores went up, Balgownie played a somewhat docile pussycat. Shame.

As to courses that could hold The Open I've heard West Lancs mentioned on the basis of it's level of difficulty. I haven't played there so would welcome the thoughts of posters herein as to it's suitabilty.

Atb

[Greg Taylor]

It's been discussed before... Royal Porthcawl.

Just re-route the first tee to the other side of the club house... not sure if has the land to house grand stands etc... but the course is capable enough isn't it?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Porthcawl was in Wales last time I checked.

[Greg Taylor]

Ah it is... thought it the British under discussion.

My bad... 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

You could build a brand new course, located on some rubbish land near to motorways, railways, airports and all the other strategic requirements. 'But rubbish land isn't linksland.' I hear you say. It didn't stop them building Kingsbarns. So, you property sleuths, get out there and find a piece of derelict land beside the sea where, if you imported sufficient sand, you could replicate links conditions. Who would you choose to design it? Get there before Mr Trump hits on this idea......

[Mike Hendren]

Its not hard to figue out why Walton will not and should not host an Open.  
Ciao    

Hockey Boy, logistics aside please elaborate.  I would sure hate to see the natives trampled under foot by spectators.

Bogey

[Sean_A]

Its not hard to figue out why Walton will not and should not host an Open.  
Ciao    

Hockey Boy, logistics aside please elaborate.  I would sure hate to see the natives trampled under foot by spectators.

Bogey

Bogey

The Open is the domain of links golf.  Long may it remain so.

Logistically, Walton Heath is probably better than any Open venue - too bad eh  .

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Michael Bonallack was very much FOR the Open going inland in the sixties when the championship was falling apart. Wentworth was mooted.

Mark Rowlinson touched on what I think is near the most likely.......A course built with the logistics in place first. It could be a present course way off the radar but with sufficient extra ground to create the masterpiece. Somewhere like Weston Super Mare.

[Neil White]

I heard a rumour that when the Warwickshire was first built someone from the R&A at the opening ceremony suggested that the course (s) could well hold the Open - it may well have been Bonallack.

Logistically the area is perfect - centrally located with excellent infrastructure.... however the courses are ghastly.

[Neil White]

Interesting.  Of course, comparing scoring of top AM events is a bit deceiving because of the weather.  For me, Princes and Deal are definitely more difficult than Burnham and Saunton, but the point is, there is a world of difference in quality between Brab/AM players and those in the Open.  Burnham would get eaten alive without twice as many bunkers and a guarantee of horrible rough.  Even then, I would guess -20 as the winner unless the wind blows.

Ciao

Unfortunately Sean I believe your premise of low scores dependant upon the wind will be true for many of the Open rota courses going forwards.

It doesn't really help that we hold our Open during the summer when the weather in less inclined to be inclement.  This year it just played into the pro's hands - not too dry and just soft enough for them to play darts - only on the first day did we see them 'struggle' with keeping the ball on the green.

I'm with you that the Open should only be played on a links but can certainly see that in the near future it will be deemed that an inland course - possibly newly built - will be needed as an appropriate venue.

[Thomas Dai]

I have heard, and I believe it's been mentioned herein before, that an inland course was considered for The Open back in the 1880's-1890's and that the course was Minchinhampton Old, yee olde horses and cattle course, and, as it happens a real favourite of mine. There were not many courses around at the time in England and some English as distinct from Scottish locations were desired for The Open but, alas, the likes of RStG's got there instead. What a thought though, Rory winning on a course with no sprinkler system and where cattle and horses roam. Actually, I quite like the idea, now where's Mr Dawson's phone number!
Atb

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()