[V. Kmetz]

One reason I believe that Raynor-Banks' Blind Brook is a fertile place for study, is because it has wonderful features such as this (a radical contour at the target of the hole) here at the 15th...its' "Short"...in this case, a hole of 115 - 140 yards played over a gentle valley to a volcanic green site set blind over a "Spectacles" style bunker benched into the approach hill.

In this case a pin set in the bathtub is something of a relief, because the precious few areas where it can be pinned (back left most often) outside of the tub are pretty much impossible to gauge-even given a short approach.

I gave two pictures where the features could be interpreted (winter snow acting as plasticene and summer with a red line)

                   

The blind nature of the shot is balanced by the larger and more cradling nature of the tub, and for 90% of the days, the command is to merely hit the green...however this hole generally plays a dozen feet uphill, and generally downwind so the amount of times one comes to rest on the back edge of the green (above the lip of the tub) is much higher than you would think...making a ticklish putt...but if you ever "tried to" intentionally find a pin on that rim, you're begging for trouble.  I love the feature here because it is equally parts acceptance of fortune underpinned by basic skills available to a wide range of golfers.

cheers

vk

[Jaeger Kovich]

Yale's #5 is a thumb print Short hole, as is #7 at Montclair's Banks 9. Neither one is that good/special, and they are FAR LESS severe than Forsgate, and most of the other holes/par-3s on their courses.

Jaeger,

The 7th on the 4th nine at Montclair has softened over the years.
The thumbprint/horseshoe was more pronounced and more of a feature to be reckoned with.
The 7th was unique in that the green was elevated far above the surrounding bunker floor, making recovery a challenge.
It was a fabulous short hole and locating the hole close to the spine, irrespective of which side of the spine, always made for interesting golf.

... Take that up with the Jones family. The only aerials the Tufts Archives have, that I scanned, don't show this green well, just the bunkering.

I don't have the same historical perspective when it comes to the 5th at Yale as I was only introduced to it in the last few decades.
But, from some of the old photos I've seen, the thumbprint/horseshoe was more pronounced than it is today.

I think these holes provide a pretty obvious safe option, and allow those that want to try to aim at the outer pins take them on, knowing that Banks usually leaves you in a flat floor bunker 10+ feet bellow if you miss wide.

Not sure what the safe option is.
With the hole located outside of the spine, playing to the interior leaves the golfer with a dicey putt, and challenging the outer hole locations on the approach brings those deep bunkers and steep slopes in to play.

Safe is hitting it in the middle of one of these large greens, duh! moron!.. People in the middle tend to putt out more often than not, especially when the other option is trying to hit a sw two stories above you, with a chance of ending up in your pocket!

I always found the hole location behind the spine at the back of the green the most difficult

Simple, strategic (especially for a par-3), but not a hole that one would get excited to play in most circumstances (Forsgate is different).

The softening of the spine has certainly taken some of the strategic play down a notch, but, the hole still remains exciting to play due to the pass/fail nature of the hole and the consequences for missing the green.

[Phil Lipper]

I would think maintenance would be nightmare given the modern equiptment we rely on and mostly the condition that members expect a green to be in. 

[Keith Phillips]

Love the Short - my favorite is likely the Sleepy Hollow version.  Pat/Jaeger, thanks for the comments re. 7 of 4 at Montclair...I enjoy that very much and will look into history of the hole - it is indeed unfortunate that a mid-handicapper like me can't more predictably hit the center of the green!!  V. Kmetz, curious if those spectacles were the original bunker configuration at Blind Brook...I prefer the look of the 'surrounding bunkers' at Montclair/Sleepy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would think maintenance would be nightmare given the modern equiptment we rely on and mostly the condition that members expect a green to be in. 

Maintenance isn't an issue, why would you think it is ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yale's #5 is a thumb print Short hole, as is #7 at Montclair's Banks 9. Neither one is that good/special, and they are FAR LESS severe than Forsgate, and most of the other holes/par-3s on their courses.

Jaeger,

The 7th on the 4th nine at Montclair has softened over the years.
The thumbprint/horseshoe was more pronounced and more of a feature to be reckoned with.
The 7th was unique in that the green was elevated far above the surrounding bunker floor, making recovery a challenge.
It was a fabulous short hole and locating the hole close to the spine, irrespective of which side of the spine, always made for interesting golf.

... Take that up with the Jones family. The only aerials the Tufts Archives have, that I scanned, don't show this green well, just the bunkering.

I don't have the same historical perspective when it comes to the 5th at Yale as I was only introduced to it in the last few decades.
But, from some of the old photos I've seen, the thumbprint/horseshoe was more pronounced than it is today.

I think these holes provide a pretty obvious safe option, and allow those that want to try to aim at the outer pins take them on, knowing that Banks usually leaves you in a flat floor bunker 10+ feet bellow if you miss wide.

Not sure what the safe option is.
With the hole located outside of the spine, playing to the interior leaves the golfer with a dicey putt, and challenging the outer hole locations on the approach brings those deep bunkers and steep slopes in to play.

Safe is hitting it in the middle of one of these large greens, duh! moron!.. People in the middle tend to putt out more often than not, especially when the other option is trying to hit a sw two stories above you, with a chance of ending up in your pocket!

You must be a poor bunker player, in fact I know you are.
A good player would use a Lob wedge, not a sand wedge to a short pin outside of the spine.
and "two stories" is an exageration.

Putting from inside the thumbprint/horseshoe to a hole location outside of the thumbprint/horseshoe is hardly a rewarding safe play.

I like that bunker shot since the spine serves as a backstop and redirects my recovery back toward the hole.

You have a lot to learn about how to play golf, so much so that even a moron like me could educate you on course management, if only I had unlimited time. 

I always found the hole location behind the spine at the back of the green the most difficult

Simple, strategic (especially for a par-3), but not a hole that one would get excited to play in most circumstances (Forsgate is different).

The softening of the spine has certainly taken some of the strategic play down a notch, but, the hole still remains exciting to play due to the pass/fail nature of the hole and the consequences for missing the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Love the Short - my favorite is likely the Sleepy Hollow version.  Pat/Jaeger, thanks for the comments re. 7 of 4 at Montclair...I enjoy that very much and will look into history of the hole - it is indeed unfortunate that a mid-handicapper like me can't more predictably hit the center of the green!!  V. Kmetz, curious if those spectacles were the original bunker configuration at Blind Brook...I prefer the look of the 'surrounding bunkers' at Montclair/Sleepy.

Keith,

I'd be curious as to the "original" versus "current" length of the hole.

That was always a hole where having the honor wasn't always such a good thing as the walk up from the 6th green could leave one gasping for air and not prepared for that deft little shot.

[Philip Caccamise]

I would think maintenance would be nightmare given the modern equiptment we rely on and mostly the condition that members expect a green to be in. 

Maintenance isn't an issue, why would you think it is ?

I have heard they have to push mow the horseshoe. I will confirm that.

Walking mowers = more man hours = theoretically more expense.

[Jon Cavalier]

Love the Short - my favorite is likely the Sleepy Hollow version.

One of my favorite holes at one of my favorite courses in golf.  From last week:






Love that place.

[Carl Nichols]

Love the Short - my favorite is likely the Sleepy Hollow version.

One of my favorite holes at one of my favorite courses in golf.  From last week:






Love that place.

Out of the many amazing pictures of great holes in the worlds, pictures like these of the Short at Sleepy Hollow are very high on my list of favorites.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And, that green isn't flat

[Jon Cavalier]

And, that green isn't flat

Not even remotely close to flat.  Actually has some very interesting internal contours and humps.

[V. Kmetz]

Love the Short - my favorite is likely the Sleepy Hollow version.  Pat/Jaeger, thanks for the comments re. 7 of 4 at Montclair...I enjoy that very much and will look into history of the hole - it is indeed unfortunate that a mid-handicapper like me can't more predictably hit the center of the green!!  V. Kmetz, curious if those spectacles were the original bunker configuration at Blind Brook...I prefer the look of the 'surrounding bunkers' at Montclair/Sleepy.

KP, I haven't looked at older aerials for a long time, but my memory and feel for the place suggests that it was always a Spectacles presentation.  If you miss the on the sides, you are usually at the bottom of a sharp slope of regular rough grass.the green pad is somewhat "volcanic", it's a slightly uphill, mostly-blind shot across a gentle valley floor and I can't envision that a "wrapping" style of encirclement would ever be of much use here, though they are a dominant presentation found on "Shorts" ...

Another reason Blind Brook is unique among template courses...in some cases the template isn't followed as religiously and elements of one template or hole style are mixed. The 12th hole is like this too...a Biarritz...where the front pad isn't green and isn't as nearly defined as almost all of them...that tilts sharply to the right...and plays like a Reverse Redan in shape of shot required...an uphill Cape...that goes to the left...that's only 275 yards...a downhill Road hole...a Bottle that has a Double Plateau green.

Great stuff...

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

In thinking about shorts, it seems that most play from an elevated tee.

A few seem to be about equal.

Are there any that play uphill, or is the intent for the golfer to view the green and it's contours from the tee ?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Love the Short - my favorite is likely the Sleepy Hollow version.  Pat/Jaeger, thanks for the comments re. 7 of 4 at Montclair...I enjoy that very much and will look into history of the hole - it is indeed unfortunate that a mid-handicapper like me can't more predictably hit the center of the green!!  V. Kmetz, curious if those spectacles were the original bunker configuration at Blind Brook...I prefer the look of the 'surrounding bunkers' at Montclair/Sleepy.

Keith,

I'd be curious as to the "original" versus "current" length of the hole.

That was always a hole where having the honor wasn't always such a good thing as the walk up from the 6th green could leave one gasping for air and not prepared for that deft little shot.

Just had a look at my old aerial from Montclair, seems relatively the same... The middle of the tee lines up with the right bunker/edge of green on 6. Yes there are more back tees, but also more forward tees, so I'll call it the same on average.

Ps - Pat, my bunker game is top knotch! But unlike those that shoot in their age, or damn near close, I have much more an understanding of how real people play the game... Moron!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaeger,

Self assessment is often indicative of an over estimate of one's game.

The selection of a Sand Wedge from a near side bunker on the 7th hole on the 4th nine at Montclair when the hole is cut outside the spine indicates that contrary to your lofty assessment of your bunker play, significant deficiencies exist, starting with your golfing IQ.

[V. Kmetz]

In thinking about shorts, it seems that most play from an elevated tee.

A few seem to be about equal.

Are there any that play uphill, or is the intent for the golfer to view the green and it's contours from the tee ?

This one at Blind Brook plays uphill...if you view the photos below you'll notice a short left tee (which plays 115-20) and a tee to the right that plays the 140-150.

The short one is on a swelled promontory and is almost at eye level with the green (again, across a little valley to a volcanic/benched-in green site), you can just see some contours.  The longer tee is to the right, and is about 7 feet lower than the short one and all you can see is the top of the flag.

cheers

vk

[Patrick_Mucci]

VK,

Can you see the putting surface from the tee  ?

Do you get a good understanding of hole location relative to contouring ?

[V. Kmetz]

No, not really Pat...from the short tee, the angle is a tad oblique but you can almost get a skim view of the back rim of the tub...the lower right, more distant tee is completely blind and elevation change of about 12 feet over 145 yards.

The "bathtub" is a complete surprise for the first time player from either tee and only the regular visitor can tell if the pin is cut in the basin or up on the rim (which my limited experience tells me is not very often...only twice in 15-20 visits).

As I said previously, I "think" the Raynor aesthetic here is that the middle would catch/receive/cradle/slow down a downwind-uphill aerial shot, sometimes holding it inside, sometimes releasing it up unto the rim...for the player there is this questioning delight of anticipation...and then the sporty  putting amusement of trying to navigate the tub floor and/or the rim.

But Blind Brook was INTENTIONALLY designed as a gentler, less penal course of modest difficulty and easy walking for the senior golfer.  It's pretty amazing in that it achieves this and still retains the templates in a mix of full size and miniature features.

cheers

vk

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