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Matthew Rose

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Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« on: July 12, 2014, 03:14:11 AM »
Where does Oak Tree sit in the Pete Dye canon?

Comes at a curious time in his catalogue.... 1976 was several years removed from The Golf Club and Harbour Town, and still a few years away from the TPC.

I've noticed watching the broadcast that many of the Dye elements seem to have been taken out or softened.... the bunkers especially. The sculpted rockwalls around the lakes almost look more like something Ted Robinson would have done in Hawaii. Overall it looks a lot different than I remember it from the '88 PGA.

Also, what's with all the beach bunkers? That is certainly a motif I've never associated with Pete.

I've also noticed that the nines have been flipped.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

JMEvensky

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 05:49:16 AM »
Hopefully, Pat Burke will chime in with a player's perspective.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2014, 10:59:36 AM »
Where does Oak Tree sit in the Pete Dye canon?

I've never played it, but taking a peak at Golfweek's Top 200 Modern list...here are Pete Dye's courses.

Whistling Straits #4
Pete Dye Golf Club #9
The Golf Club #11
Kiawah Ocean #17
The Honors #18
TPC Sawgrass #21
Oak Tree #41
Harbour Town #42
Blackwolf Run (River) #47
Long Cove #61
French Lick #149
Whistling Straits (Irish) #161
Bulle Rock #166
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Andy Troeger

Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2014, 12:58:02 PM »
When I played it a few years ago, it was very clearly Pete Dye work. That's a good thing. There are quite a few homes around it, especially early in the back nine, but the course has a lot of strategy and is certainly difficult. We played it on "tip and tuck" day, and although we didn't tip it out the pins were a bit crazy. I think on a regular day it would be reasonably playable. No one is going to confuse it with the natural-looking courses being built more recently, but I'd call it my favorite course in Oklahoma and GolfWeek probably has it about right at #41 modern. I'd move Blackwolf Run River ahead of it, but leave the rest as compared to Oak Tree.

Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 05:18:20 PM »
Oak Tree doesn't strike me as a USGA Championship course. Overplanted and too many goofy features.
I haven't played there but unimpressed in HD.
How about Wes Short Jr?
I will grant you that the leaderboard is handsome but very unimpressed by the golf course.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2014, 06:43:06 PM »
Andy - did you feel that the tree growth has harmed the course's playability and strategic value?  (In other words, based only on TV, I felt that some holes were tree-choked.)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2014, 07:00:09 PM »
As a MacRaynor fan, this was an interesting look to me, as it almost looked like a replica course in a few spots. Trees can be cut and the 13th hole par 3 looked like the beginning of Pete "Do or Dye", but I liked the look on TV in caparison to most of his later work which all seems like #13 to me.

The red wine is going to kill Colin Montgomery in the heat tomorrow....


Pat Burke

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2014, 10:09:54 PM »
They did flip the nines.
When I arrived the Friday before the tournament, the fairways were running unbelievably,
and the greens were very firm, and fast.
I was getting 30+ yards of roll on many fairways.  Approach shots with anything other than
wedges were releasing 20+ feet.
The greens were the best I have seen in years.
As far as the trees, (using the tournament order).  #3 was possibly a bit tight, but I don't think so.
# 6 bottle necked pretty severely, and IMO could be opened a bit, especially given to severity of the approach shot.
#9 was one of my 2 least favorite holes.  In to the wind I had a hard time reaching the right side of the fairway, and hitting
it up the left, I was blocked by trees.  Going over them, was also going in to the prevailing wind, and blind.  A couple of trees
removed would get my vote at least! :D
On the back (tournament), I felt there was plenty of space off the tee.
18 was my least favorite hole in the practice rounds.  From the post, I couldn't reach the fairway with normal wind, without
killing one.  Then was left in rough with the most difficult green on the course (approach shot).

The course was very tough.  They must have some pretty tough members!  Missing greens almost always left a recovery
with a very small success target.  There were a few pitch shots that I didn't think I could get on the green.
I definitely felt it was set up for the player controlling his approach shots best.  Missing greens left brutal recovery shots.

Toughest course I've played in many, many years, but I never felt it was stupid, or the dreaded "unfair" (not sure what that means).
Just an tough ass examination of your ability to hit your targets.

Tom Bacsanyi

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2014, 12:09:13 AM »
Place looks awesome, although the beach bunkers drive me nuts, as do the par 3s with forward tees jutting into the picture like a mini fairway.  Hate that look.  All in all though a great test for those guys.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Andy Troeger

Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2014, 12:15:30 AM »
Andy - did you feel that the tree growth has harmed the course's playability and strategic value?  (In other words, based only on TV, I felt that some holes were tree-choked.)

I haven't watched on TV at all, but the only hole that seemed over-treed to me was the regular 1st hole. Otherwise, if there were trees in play they seemed to be there for strategic reasons.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2014, 12:26:52 AM »
I used to play it some and while I basically like it as a fun but tough test I have not played the remodeled version. The first five holes of the tournament course are real estate on both sides golf which the USGA has typically avoided. On the back nine,I always felt the ball was above my feet as a right handed player.Seems like very few level lies and none with the ball below feet.If my recollection is correct this would seem that a left hander plays a different course than a right hander.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2014, 07:18:06 PM »

The red wine is going to kill Colin Montgomery in the heat tomorrow....


Got to eat that one ! Congrats to Monty....

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2014, 08:08:00 PM »
Shout out to my fellow Beverly member, Lance Tenbroeck on his strong finish , 14 th place. I was hitting balls next to him on the 4 th and had the good sense not to comment on his swing:)

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2014, 10:13:30 PM »
I saw less than 10 minutes of the coverage, but I will say the bunkers (not the beach bunkers) looked awesome. Are they the most severe set of bunkers Dye ever built? The banks are so steep and deep. They look so intimidating!
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2014, 11:10:25 PM »
Pat Burke,

How does the course impress you in terms of providing an enjoyable challenge for the members ?

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 10:45:31 AM »
Pat Burke,

How does the course impress you in terms of providing an enjoyable challenge for the members ?

The people who join Oak Tree are well aware of the brutal nature of the course, it is a harsh mistress to be sure. However, much like the PGA West Stadium course I found that if you play the correct tees and don't try to overpower the course you can play well there. 

It was hot out there though.

Pat Burke

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 03:38:06 PM »
Pat Burke,

How does the course impress you in terms of providing an enjoyable challenge for the members ?

One of the most fun things of the week was hanging in the locker room.  There was a group of members
who volunteered that were working in there.  Talked quite a bit to them.  They seem very proud of the
difficulty of the place.  Obviously takes a special breed to play there, but it seems they like it.
I can tell you something, I wouldn't want to gamble against any of them.  Their handicaps must travel well :)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 03:46:02 PM »
Pat Burke,

How does the course impress you in terms of providing an enjoyable challenge for the members ?

One of the most fun things of the week was hanging in the locker room.  There was a group of members
who volunteered that were working in there.  Talked quite a bit to them.  They seem very proud of the
difficulty of the place.  Obviously takes a special breed to play there, but it seems they like it.
I can tell you something, I wouldn't want to gamble against any of them.  Their handicaps must travel well :)

Probably comparable to Oakmont members. They love to tell guests how tough the course is but how much they love to play it.

John Connolly

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 04:11:30 PM »
I saw less than 10 minutes of the coverage, but I will say the bunkers (not the beach bunkers) looked awesome. Are they the most severe set of bunkers Dye ever built? The banks are so steep and deep. They look so intimidating!

Matt,
What are beach bunkers? I've seen a few mentions and I'm curious. I only saw the 18th hole played on Sunday. Thanks.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Bill_McBride

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2014, 04:19:51 PM »
I saw less than 10 minutes of the coverage, but I will say the bunkers (not the beach bunkers) looked awesome. Are they the most severe set of bunkers Dye ever built? The banks are so steep and deep. They look so intimidating!

Matt,
What are beach bunkers? I've seen a few mentions and I'm curious. I only saw the 18th hole played on Sunday. Thanks.

John, I haven't been to Oak Tree but did see bunkers at True Blue (Stranz) that flattened and terminated into water. #17 there was probably the best example. 

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2014, 05:59:49 PM »
Beach Bunker. They aren't terrible, but I am not really a fan of them.


Steep and deep at Oak Tree. Couldn't really find a great picture. Best I could find.




the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Steve Lang

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2014, 11:28:49 PM »


old 17 a par 3, members used to call it "Eternity" as the carry over water seemed to take...

WCC and OT used to have a Timber Cup competition in late 1990's that was initiated in 1997 with Club Champ flight winners.. with Ryder cup style competitions... OT members at that time were a hoot to play with and very proud of the difficulty of the place.. first I had ever seen true dedication to an "Emergency 9 - where money knew no home"  I got to play with an OK Supreme Court judge and we didn't hesitate on old #9 green to say good-good to some 6 ft putts to get  off of there with a half pt...  In over a dozen plays I never really thought it was unfair, just very demanding physically and mentally.

glad to see it get some tv time

too bad they got rid of the old hangman tree!  it was perfect symbolism for that ? 16th green  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:28:56 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Pat Burke

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 01:57:55 PM »
Funny, the par threes with the "beach" bunkers made the approach seem tighter to me.
(using tournament rotation)
#8 The prevailing wind was off the right side.  The bunker/lake position made the right
look tighter to me for some reason.  It took a few days before hitting into the bunker
seemed okay.  The left side chipping areas were tough, the bunker, pretty simple.
#13  Same thing.  The prevailing wind came from the left, and it just felt to me that missing
left was water.  The bunker was pretty big, and hitting in the water would be a huge miss.


FWIW   It messed with me a little!

John Keenan

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Re: Senior Open at Oak Tree National
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 06:37:22 PM »
Oak Tree has a group of pros that play there as well. They are referred to as the Oak Tree Gang. I think they are  Gil Morgan, Bob Tway, Scott Verplank, Willie Wood, David Edwards, Doug Tewell and Mark Hayes
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

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