Jack in Dornoch!

[Ulrich Mayring]

David,

what has, in your opinion, contributed to the hike in greenfees then? Before Tom Watson waxed lyrical about Royal Dornoch, it was a very affordable course. The price increase has been steeper than at TOC.

10000 well-to-do visitors a year make a course less accessible, not more, because you are excluding those with modest budgets.

Ulrich

[David_Tepper]

Ulrich -

Here are just some of the events that have contributed to the recognition of Royal Dornoch as a worthwhile golf destination:

- Herbert Warren Wind visiting in the 1960's and writing about it in The New Yorker.

- Pete Dye visiting in the same period.

- Royal Dornoch hosting the British Amateur in 1985.

- The building of bridges across the Moray, Cromarty & Dornoch Firths in the 1980's & 90's which reduced the drive time from Inverness to Dornoch by an hour of so.

- Lorne Rubenstein's book, A Season In Dornoch.  

- The chapter on Dornoch in Michael Bamberger's book To the Linksland.

- Numerous golf magazine articles featuring Royal Dornch thru the years that made no reference to Tom Watson's visit.

To say that Tom Watson's visit to Dornoch had a bigger impact on the green fees charged at Dornoch than any of the above events is, at best, doubtful.

DT

[David_Tepper]

Ulrich -

I am curious why you feel Dornoch (or any other private golf club) is somehow obliged to make their course "accessible" by charging lower green fees. Is La Scala Opera House in Milan obliged to lower the price of their tickets to make their performances more "accessible?" Are 3-star restaurants in Paris (or anywhere else) obliged to do the same?

Real Madrid is playing a football exhibition against Inter Milan in Berkeley, CA later this month. Many of the tickets are selling for more than one round of golf at Royal Dornoch or any other premium golfing venue in GB&I or the U.S. Such is the price of leisure pastimes.

By the way, you can enter either the Whyte & McKay or Carnegie Shield at Royal Dornoch and get to play the course for a very modest entry green fee.

DT  




 
  

[David_Tepper]

Ulrich -

Other events that contributed to the interest/demand for golf in Dornoch & the Highlands include:

- Nairn Golf Club hosting the British Amateur, the Walker Cup & the Curtis Cup in the last 20 years.

- The creation of the Carnegie Club at Skibo Castle, which indeed did bring "well heeled" golfers to the Dornoch area.

- Madonna marrying Guy Ritchie at the Carnegie Club and the baptism of their child in the Dornoch Cathedral.

DT
 

[Greg Gilson]

Everyone would love it to be even cheaper and no one dislikes parting with their own money more than me. However, Royal Dornoch at GBP120 (High Season) is probably the second best deal in golf IMHO. The best deal is TOC.

You might not be able to get a tee time at either whenever you want but you won't find me moaning about the price (or blaming Tom Watson for them!).

[Paul Gray]

On a personally level, I couldn't give two hoots about the private life of Jack Nicklaus or any other former player. In my opinion, concerning yourself with such trivialities is no less vacuous than following a celebrity on twitter.

In terms of the game however, any exposure given to 'proper golf' has to be, on balance, a good thing, unless of course you'd prefer for golf on ideal terrain to be a dying niche detached from the game played by the ordinary man. I cringe when I here Colin Montgomerie or whoever waxing lyrical about their latest bland creation. Jack being connected with Dornoch however presents a positive image to the broader golfing world about just what good golf looks like.

[Ryan Coles]

Maybe Nicklaus was in Dornoch, but did not play golf. It's a great base for exploring the Highlands.

But I wonder whether all those high rollers playing this previously hidden gem, starting with Tom Watson years ago, is really a good thing. It certainly had a negative effect on Joe Average's ability to play the course more than, say, once in a lifetime. Hard to fully appreciate a course from just one round, but that is all that most can afford these days. Sad to see those green fees skyrocketing, just as at TOC, which I believe should be way more accessible as well.

Ulrich

Still the best value top end greenfee in the uk. And a twilight rate for £70. Doesn't seem too bad to me.

[Ryan Coles]

What a great bloke. Has there ever been a greater sportsman than Jack?

Arnie was a far greater sportsman than Jack!!

Ken Venturi would disagree.

As would I.

No denying Palmer greatness or influence on the modern game. But his star didn't burn for very long, major wise.

[Ulrich Mayring]

David,

I didn't say that Royal Dornoch is obliged to lower their prices. I said that higher prices make a course less accessible (that's a fact) and that it would be better for the game if historically significant courses were more accessible (that's an opinion).

Ulrich

[David_Tepper]

Ulrich -

You are confusing accessible with affordable.

Given that the vast majority of "historically significant courses" in the U.S. are not accessible to the visiting/traveling golfer at any price, I have little sympathy for your opinion.

DT

[Ulrich Mayring]

Do you have any sympathy for the majority of football fans that these days are priced out of visiting Premier League games? Or for the 90% of Brazilian football fans, who can only afford to watch the World Cup on TV, even though it is staged right on their doorstep? Do you think that is ultimately good for the game?

In Germany we still sell relatively cheap tickets for the hardy, if somewhat under-financed supporters and, as a consequence, the spirit of football is still alive in Bundesliga stadiums. Whereas in most other major leagues football has become an over-commercialized "event". So, Germany is doing it for football, who is going to step up to the plate for golf?

Ulrich

[jeffwarne]

What a great bloke. Has there ever been a greater sportsman than Jack?

Arnie was a far greater sportsman than Jack!!

Ken Venturi would disagree.

As would I.

No denying Palmer greatness or influence on the modern game. But his star didn't burn for very long, major wise.

Ridiculous
Palmer  won his last major in 1964
His "star" burned brightly until mid 2000's
He commanded the biggest galleries for 40 years at Augusta-Jack's paled in comparison.
Jack while a greater player, was NEVER more popular, and NEVER a greater sportsman than Arnie.

[Mark Bourgeois]

With respect to everyone, I feel arguments about the GOAT sportsman are like arguing how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. Always room at the top as Daniel Webster said.

Watching Nicklaus warmly wrap his arm around Watson's shoulder as they walked of the 72nd green at the '77 Open...who could ask for anything more?

Bert Sugar used to speak highly of Ali whenever I asked about him. But I think he really fell for the showman in Ali and took a writer's view, which is to say he relished the contradictions and complexities rather than just manufacturing what Yeats called "plaster saints."

My $0.02

[David_Tepper]

"Or for the 90% of Brazilian football fans, who can only afford to watch the World Cup on TV, even though it is staged right on their doorstep?"

Ulrich -

I have far, far more sympathy for the millions of Brazilians living in slums without electricity, sanitation or running water than I do for anyone who was not able to afford to buy a ticket for a World Cup game.

DT

 

[Brent Hutto]

It's hard to make a social justice argument that a fairly exclusive private golf club that one must travel to the Highlands of Scotland to visit would make the world a better place by lowering the visitor's green fee. The only thing it would make better is the pocketbook of a bunch of middle class or wealthy golfers, many of whom have purchased a $1,500 plane ticket to get to Scotland in the first place.

[Jonathan Mallard]

It's hard to make a social justice argument that a fairly exclusive private golf club that one must travel to the Highlands of Scotland to visit would...

Nah.

Really not hard at all. All it takes is a few keystrokes.

Come to think of it, the same concept applies to just about every other discussion on here.

Words are free.

[Mike Sweeney]

Do you have any sympathy for the majority of football fans that these days are priced out of visiting Premier League games? Or for the 90% of Brazilian football fans, who can only afford to watch the World Cup on TV, even though it is staged right on their doorstep? Do you think that is ultimately good for the game?

The world is evolving and soon access to watching football will probably cost $25:

http://time.com/2857448/mozilla-25-smartphone-firefox/

The fact that watching it live will be costly is simply evolutionary. Personally, I prefer to watch "professional sports" on TV and most of the time, I prefer to watch the highlights of sporting events. I still prefer to play, rather than watch sports.

In Germany we still sell relatively cheap tickets for the hardy, if somewhat under-financed supporters and, as a consequence, the spirit of football is still alive in Bundesliga stadiums. Whereas in most other major leagues football has become an over-commercialized "event". So, Germany is doing it for football, who is going to step up to the plate for golf?

I played a 9 hole course in the USA on July 3rd for $14 and that included two water bottles. I honestly think it was the BEST 9 hole course that I have played, but I do have a few obvious gaps in my resume. I am guilty in the past of "trophy hunting", but now I prefer to find and play really good courses at a reasonable price rather that the usual "Top 100's".

[Bill_McBride]

What a great bloke. Has there ever been a greater sportsman than Jack?

Arnie was a far greater sportsman than Jack!!

Ken Venturi would disagree.

As would I.

No denying Palmer greatness or influence on the modern game. But his star didn't burn for very long, major wise.

If he'd only won a couple of those US Open playoffs in 62, 63, 65 and 66!  

[Jim Nugent]

Bill, '65 would have been difficult, even for Arnie, since he missed the cut with a pair of 76s.  I was there, at Bellerive CC in St. Louis -- the only US Open I've attended.  My next door neighbor, a golf lover, bought me a season's pass for $15 IIRC: I went to every day of practice, tournament and playoff, except Friday.  Jack, btw, snuck in right on the cutline of 150 and never was a factor.  Player won the playoff with Kel Nagle. 

You're right about the others.  As a big Arnie fan, I suffered watching his last round and playoff in 1966 on TV. 

[Ryan Coles]

What a great bloke. Has there ever been a greater sportsman than Jack?

Arnie was a far greater sportsman than Jack!!

Ken Venturi would disagree.

As would I.

No denying Palmer greatness or influence on the modern game. But his star didn't burn for very long, major wise.

Ridiculous
Palmer  won his last major in 1964
His "star" burned brightly until mid 2000's
He commanded the biggest galleries for 40 years at Augusta-Jack's paled in comparison.
Jack while a greater player, was NEVER more popular, and NEVER a greater sportsman than Arnie.

Jeff

Read what I said. His major star burned out quickly. A six year gap between his first in 58 and his last in 64. I believe there was a 23 gap with Jack's. These are facts.

I don't therefore agree that my opinion is ridiculous.  

It is a fact that Palmer was more popular with American fans, granted. Frank Bruno is a very popular boxer over here.

So it is a fact that Jack was a greater golfer. I just feel he was also the better sportsman and displayed better sportsmanship. He also bowed out at the right time, whereas Palmer went on for far too long and embarrassed himself toward the end in my opinion. Jack at Pebble and St Andrews was perfect.

[Sean_A]

The biggest impact on the incredble hike in green fees at Dornoch is demand.  You can argue all day what creates demand, but I think the biggest driver of demand is the right people having spare cash burn.  It sounds bass awkward, but Ulrich is right.  At the current rate hikes, many courses will be less accessible with the more visitors they get.  Some are already there.  There must be tons of folks who have played the Dornochs, would like to go back, but can't or won't pay the what can be double green fees from an earlier visit.  At the moment its rosey for the big clubs, but with fewer people coming to the game and as golfers get older who fills the time sheets?  Are we going to see a huge push to get the Chinese to come over? 

BTW - Jack is a class act.  I don't know if he was the classiest, but to compare him with Ali is disheartening.  Just for his treatment of Fraser, a man who was instrumental in saving Ali's career, Ali should be highly ashamed of himself.   

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

I'm taking the long term view. Obviously, there are thousands of great and affordable courses out there, which contribute mightily to the future of the game. We need those and need to help them stay open. But we also need the pinnacle of the game being somewhat in relation to the rest of golf.

Those who are asking to roll back the ball in order to save our great courses should realise the value in having one game played by all to the same rules and on the same courses. Yes, it's more expensive to visit a game of Bayern Munich than, say, one of a local team playing in the 2nd or 3rd league. But it can still be done. You can get in for 15 Euro (or even 5 Euro if you are handicapped). The best seats are 70 Euros.

Let me put it this way: how much should you charge a pilgrim to visit a holy site?

Ulrich

[Brent Hutto]

Ulrich,

Dornoch is not a holy site and the punters who visit are not pilgrims. The only golf course that might, for some people, even remotely merit that sort of high falutin' faux reverence is the Old Course.

The future of the game depends on the green fee at Royal Dornoch roughly as much as it depends on the health of Tiger Woods's back. If Tiger retired tomorrow or the members at Dornoch closed the door to visitors forever, the game would continue much as it has. Bad news for Tiger fans or for those who were dreaming of visiting Dornoch but the game of golf does not consist solely of multi-millionaire sports celebrities or private clubs who own links golf courses.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, '65 would have been difficult, even for Arnie, since he missed the cut with a pair of 76s.  I was there, at Bellerive CC in St. Louis -- the only US Open I've attended.  My next door neighbor, a golf lover, bought me a season's pass for $15 IIRC: I went to every day of practice, tournament and playoff, except Friday.  Jack, btw, snuck in right on the cutline of 150 and never was a factor.  Player won the playoff with Kel Nagle. 

You're right about the others.  As a big Arnie fan, I suffered watching his last round and playoff in 1966 on TV. 

If that's the last time I'm wrong it will be a miracle!   

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ulrich

Play the courses you really want to ASAP.  The way economies are going means that the price of "high end desirable" experiences are not going to increase at the rate of inflation. You can see that in sport and art. At the mass level there will be the provision of more and more goods at a realistic price. The real Quality ("exclusivity") will increasingly command a price premium putting them out of reach of all but a wealthy elite.  To regulate this any other way is, what my friend Lou correctly refers to as, Socialism.







"The best things in like are free".  A famous shoplifter.