Hawaii golf, a retrospective

[Greg Tallman]

Tommy,

Why is it that playing around dunes that are largely unplayable can be awesome yet playing around the lava fields is lacking in strategy?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

Why is it that playing around dunes that are largely unplayable can be awesome yet playing around the lava fields is lacking in strategy?
[/quote


9 at Mauna Lani North


Greg, I found that the lava on Hualalai and Mauna Lani never really were in play. They were just black dots scattered around the courses.   Dunes, whether the player plays through the valley or over them are in play.  You can play out of dunes not out of lava. The par three ninth  at the North course at Mauna Lani is a neat look, but how does the lava add anything but eye candy to the course?

Others

[Greg Tallman]

Tommy,

Why is it that playing around dunes that are largely unplayable can be awesome yet playing around the lava fields is lacking in strategy?
[/quote


9 at Mauna Lani North


Greg, I found that the lava on Hualalai and Mauna Lani never really were in play. They were just black dots scattered around the courses.   Dunes, whether the player plays through the valley or over them are in play.  You can play out of dunes not out of lava. The par three ninth  at the North course at Mauna Lani is a neat look, but how does the lava add anything but eye candy to the course?

Others

Are there not plenty of dunes that are not really playable? New Trump course for example.

[Powell Arms]

I have played a bunch in Kauai.  I too love the Prince course.  I would add Puakea and Kiahuna to the list, both ranked well above Poipu Bay, and a substantially better value.  I posted a photo tour of Puakea in 2010, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45750.0.html

Both are friendly places with the majority of play from locals.  Cost for either should be under $80 with cart and juniors play free. Kiahuna is basically right across the street from Poipu Bay.  No ocean views but substantially better holes.

[Jeff Evagues]

I have played a bunch in Kauai.  I too love the Prince course.  I would add Puakea and Kiahuna to the list, both ranked well above Poipu Bay, and a substantially better value.  I posted a photo tour of Puakea in 2010, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45750.0.html

Both are friendly places with the majority of play from locals.  Cost for either should be under $80 with cart and juniors play free. Kiahuna is basically right across the street from Poipu Bay.  No ocean views but substantially better holes.

I think Puakea and Kiahuna are excellent hidden gems. Has anyone had luck getting on Kukulia, the new private on Kauai?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Hi Greg, I think that there is not only a difference between how they look but how they play.  I have played a bunch of golf in GB&I.  The courses couldn't be more different.  The lava seems like it was just dropped around the course.  I wouldn't have minded it if the holes themselves were interesting.  They were not.  Holes on the links courses of GB&I would be interesting if there were no dunes.  It isn't the lava I dislike. I dislike the courses that are designed on them. 

[Powell Arms]

I spoke with an assistant pro at Kukui'ula in early August.  They are not allowing reciprocal play at this time, which is understandable. Everyone would have their pro calling the island to get on the course.

I suspect someone interested in buying a residential lot would be able to get on, but I didn't explore that avenue.  

I think Puakea and Kiahuna are excellent hidden gems. Has anyone had luck getting on Kukulia, the new private on Kauai?

[Matthew Petersen]

For me ...

1. Kapalua Plantation. Plenty difficult without involving too many forced carries of the really hairy stuff.

2. Prince Course. I love it, but there were just too many places where I saw my Dad was unable to even have a chance. Would like to play this one again as it has been quite a while.

3. Challenge at Manele. A few kind of clunky holes, but mostly very good given what they were doing with the routing. To that extent, the routing is unique and clever. The holes on the cliffs are beyond words.

4. Wailea Gold. Nice, unspectacular. Bonus points for giving up my first ever eagle on a par 4.

5. Experience at Koele. I felt more like I was back in the mountains of Colorado than in Hawaii, but there was quite a lot to like here. Front nine feels very different from the first seven holes of the back nine.

6. Makena South. Sad to hear this may be on its way to NLE status.

7. Beach Course at Waikoloa. Don't remember the course so well as I remember how brutally windy it was the day I played it. However, that sort of wind is far from unusual in that area so I felt like the course should be more forgiving in anticipation of it.

8. Kaanapali North (Royal?). Never sure how to rank this one. I actually really liked all the holes on the ocean side of the highway. I really did not like any of them on the mountain side, however. One of those experiences that made me appreciate how brilliant the Plantation course is even more.

[Matthew Petersen]

Hawaii golf is not stellar compared to what it COULD be. I put it on par with Scottsdale. Great location and terrain (and views)...but far and few between in terms of really, really good golf. Yet, Hawaii does have its quirks and, as Tommy points out, some very decent offerings despite this general stereotype.

Seems like a good comparison. Real estate and/or resorts dominate the development and leave spectacular but not necessarily very well suited land to the golf course, in both cases. Also, the sheer cost of a round no doubt leads many a player to overrate the experience.

[Tim Leahy]

A couple of courses that would make your top 5 and top 20 respectively might be Turtle Bay (Palmer) and Ko'Olau.

I might be higher on Ko'Olau than most, but it's adventure golf, and adventure golf in a jungle. Maybe the qualifier for it is that single digit handicaps are really the only ones that might like it that much.

I also enjoyed Ko'Olau and I am far from a single digit handicap. Tommy, have you not played there or just didn't like it?

[Tommy Williamsen]

A couple of courses that would make your top 5 and top 20 respectively might be Turtle Bay (Palmer) and Ko'Olau.

I might be higher on Ko'Olau than most, but it's adventure golf, and adventure golf in a jungle. Maybe the qualifier for it is that single digit handicaps are really the only ones that might like it that much.

I also enjoyed Ko'Olau and I am far from a single digit handicap. Tommy, have you not played there or just didn't like it?

I have not played any golf on Oahu.  If I do Ko'Olau would be one that I would love to play. 

[Brad Tufts]

I've played most of the favorites, some of which are excellent, but I can add a few more local spots that I have been to and really enjoyed:

Pukalani GC, on the slopes of Haleakala...a good locals course with fairways lined by funky Norfolk Pines.  One par three plays 180 over a ravine, but the faint of long carry can play to a green at the bottom of the ravine!

Dunes @ Maui Lani...another kamaina spot with some good holes played through some genuine (grass and tree covered) dunes in the plain between the two halves of Maui.  Cheap-ish and few tourists!

Wailua...genuinely my favorite course on Kauai.  The Prince is a treat for difficulty and the Jurassic Park factor, and Poipu is fun for the finishing holes and the Grand Slam hosting history, but Wailua is a really a treat.  For the minimalist GCA party liners, Wailua has it all...history (80+ years, and many tournaments), design pedigree of a local legend (Toyo Shirai), small details that make the round challenging and fun, ocean views on 1,2,17, and 18, cash only and don't forget to sign the ancient ledger of play, and have a Bud heavy in the cinder-block clubhouse!

[Richard Choi]

This brings up an interesting memory...

I went to Dunes at Maui Lani several years ago. I was in Maui with my family and wanted to sneak in a round and heard the course was interesting.

Got there before the sunrise and when the pro shop opened, I asked if I can walk on as a single. They said, no problem, you will tee off behind the regular foursome who always tees off on the first tee time.

I asked, since I was all by myself (they were not putting me with another group, they were going to send me out as a single) would it be okay if I tee off before the foursome. I was pretty shocked when they said "no, these guys are regulars and they play pretty fast". I just walked out and went back to my resort. I probably will never play that course, which is fine by me.

I understand trying to accommodate the regulars, but doesn't anybody else find that policy odd?

[Matthew Petersen]

Well, keeping the regulars happy is a lot more beneficial to the bottom line than a single tourist.

[Jeff Evagues]

I guarantee you they would have let you thru by the second hole.

[Richard Choi]

Jeff, if that is true, why not just let me tee off first? If I was the regular, I would have insisted on that since having a single trailing a foursome is an automatic pass and I rather not do that during the round if I can avoid it.

I just thought it was odd.

[Jeff Evagues]

I agree with you. I'm a starter sometimes at my course and would certainly send a single out first.  I go to Hawaii twice a year and some places will send the locals out regardless. I never say anything and the group lets me pass all the time.

[ChipOat]

Nobody has mentioned Oahu Country Club.

OCC is the best course I have ever played on, basically, mountainous terrain (think Vermont and New Hampshire).  Excellent routing and green complexes.  Also, the only really good DOWNHILL par 5 I've ever played.

While OCC is the "Old Hawaii" private club, it's not that hard to get on and is closer to downtown Honolulu than Wailae.

I encourage any of you to give it a go when you're on Oahu.

Mid-Pac (Raynor) is also private but not hard to get on, either.

[Jeff Evagues]

Nobody has mentioned Oahu Country Club.

OCC is the best course I have ever played on, basically, mountainous terrain (think Vermont and New Hampshire).  Excellent routing and green complexes.  Also, the only really good DOWNHILL par 5 I've ever played.

While OCC is the "Old Hawaii" private club, it's not that hard to get on and is closer to downtown Honolulu than Wailae.

I encourage any of you to give it a go when you're on Oahu.

Mid-Pac (Raynor) is also private but not hard to get on, either.

I've played Mid-Pac but have had no luck with Oahu CC. Any insights would be appreciated. (Playing Waialae in Nov.)

[Jackson C]

I played a round at Mauna Lani with my buddy who hit into the lava rocks 5 times ... and each time the ball bounced back in the fairway!
Lava rocks are more forgiving than water.   

I liked Prince as much as Plantation.  The issue I have with Plantation is it can get so windy on that site that it darn near unplayable.  Also the run on the course is due more to the severe slope as opposed to undulations, grass choice, and maintenance.

[Carl Nichols]

I'm heading to Hawaii in August for a two-week family vacation, and have done basically nothing to plan any possible golf outings.  This is a very helpful thread, but would love any additional insight or updates people might have.  For various reasons, we're going to be on the Big Island for a week (at Mauna Kea) and Oahu for a week (at Turtle Bay).  Seems like the one no-brainer is Mauna Kea, given where we're staying, etc.  Is Turtle Bay any good?  More generally, would it be worth it to try and arrange a game at any of the private courses on those two islands--and, if so, which ones?  Please note this is not some attempt to get access through GCA; I'm just trying to see whether it's worth the effort for me to contact some folks who could possibly help.  Thanks

[Tom Bacsanyi]

This brings up an interesting memory...

I went to Dunes at Maui Lani several years ago. I was in Maui with my family and wanted to sneak in a round and heard the course was interesting.

Got there before the sunrise and when the pro shop opened, I asked if I can walk on as a single. They said, no problem, you will tee off behind the regular foursome who always tees off on the first tee time.

I asked, since I was all by myself (they were not putting me with another group, they were going to send me out as a single) would it be okay if I tee off before the foursome. I was pretty shocked when they said "no, these guys are regulars and they play pretty fast". I just walked out and went back to my resort. I probably will never play that course, which is fine by me.

I understand trying to accommodate the regulars, but doesn't anybody else find that policy odd?

Or maybe they didn't want you up the maintenance staff's butt?  When do you think they do their work?  Midnight?  Any property worth it's salt laughs uncontrollably when you ask to play the first tee time as a single.   

[Doug Wright]

Carl,

Nanea (David McClay Kidd) on the Big Island is worth seeing if you can get on (quite private). Golf on a grand scale and I thought  the hillside terrain was managed well in the design.