News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« on: July 04, 2014, 06:26:34 PM »
Tom Doak's comment in the France thread about not having many bunkers due to clay soils, leaves me wondering - what is the second best solution you've seen to prevent / reduce this? I.e construction method and materials?

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 07:52:30 PM »
Liners help minimize clay contamination even in artistic bunkers. You can over-engineer — and use a spray epoxy to minimize the crumbling of exposed clay bunker walls. In the winter though, with the soil expanding and contracting with freezing and thawing, the clay walls could heave off in sheets vs. crumbling. Or — just refrain from being so aggressive with edging practices during growing season to allow for soil stabilization with the turf and native grasses.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 08:58:42 PM by Dunlop_White »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 08:44:26 PM »
First, bunkers are not natural to clay bases.  The best solution is probably grass faced mostly flat sand bunkers.  Otherwise handle them the way Cuscowill does and just allow the clay to contaminate...not a bad look...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 10:08:47 PM »
First, bunkers are not natural to clay bases.  The best solution is probably grass faced mostly flat sand bunkers.  Otherwise handle them the way Cuscowill does and just allow the clay to contaminate...not a bad look...

Agree about the bunkers at Cuscowilla.   It's a real red clay Georgia  look!

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2014, 12:11:19 AM »
First, bunkers are not natural to clay bases.  The best solution is probably grass faced mostly flat sand bunkers.  Otherwise handle them the way Cuscowill does and just allow the clay to contaminate...not a bad look...

Agree about the bunkers at Cuscowilla.   It's a real red clay Georgia  look!

Yep, those bunkers originally had bright white sand. Visited there in Dec. 97 (I think), and it was a wet winter. It was the beginning of the transition from white to orange.

Textile liners and power rakes don't mix well. If the sand gets a little thin, the bunker rake pulls up the liner. Using sod as a liner is an old method that works.

The sportcrete type liner might work in warmer climates, but it didn't make sense as Dunlop noted where you get below freezing. Roads in such climates get refractory cracks, so these thin layers of sprayed-on "protection" would seem to be vulnerable to breaking down due to expansion and contraction.

One way to reduce contamination (if you have sand faced bunkers) would be to have enough drainage so the water has somewhere to go after rains, but this isn't a guarantee against contamination either.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 12:20:01 AM by Tony Ristola »

Ben Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2014, 01:07:13 AM »
One of the best currently is Blinder, a rubber crumb based product
http://www.theblinder.com/

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2014, 04:59:53 AM »
Sod liner. Cheap, effective, can be installed by anyone. spray roundup on the turf prior to adding sand.

http://www.tacomaturf.net/2013/02/urgent-do-not-go-into-bunkers.html

We did not install any type of liners last year during our renovation. We made sure we were very diligent to make sure that water was moving around the bunker faces and if it had to get into the bunker, it was on the low end, which would require little extra maintenance
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:12:33 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 05:23:46 AM »
Bunkers and the cost to maintain them certainly in the UK has become quite a problem. Escalating tax and haulage costs have pushed some sands to close to £50 per tonne. With continous rain and multiple washouts the life of the  good bunker sand can be decreased from say 10 to 3 years. It is a good time for clubs to have a look at really think "do we need that bunker". The flipside is that often the better bunkers condition wise are the ones not used as much. Some bunkers just do not need to be the size they are so some rethinking could be given to re-shaping them so they collect the ball but the sand area is smaller, the flipside of which is they gather the rain too! :O(
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 06:24:05 AM »
Adrian

Well, I hope the weather does raise questions about the number of bunkers on courses.  I think it disheartening when 75 bunkers (and nevermind about the hopeless cases of Muirfield and Lytham  :P) are used when more creative shaping and better bunker placement can cut that number in half. 

You should approach Cleeve Cloud with a 20-25 bunker plan.  Man could that course be transformed with some judiciously placed bunkers. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 07:37:01 AM »
I agree with Anthony that sod is an effective and cheap bunker liner. Isn't the main reason for not having many bunkers in clay one of drainage.

As Adrian says the cost of sand can be really stupid at time.

Jon

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 07:46:54 AM »
I agree with Anthony that sod is an effective and cheap bunker liner. Isn't the main reason for not having many bunkers in clay one of drainage.

As Adrian says the cost of sand can be really stupid at time.

Jon

Heard and interesting story with golfing in Highlands, NC last month. Many courses in that areas of the country use SP-55 sand, or a feldspar quartz, which is VERY white and a great bunker sand. Mining companies were selling it for bunker sand, but now have found they can sell it overseas for other products....at 40x+ the cost.
Really good, properly draining bunker sand isn't cheap. We have a sand here in the south called G-Angle that is similar to Pro-Angle out of Ohio. We pay about $25/ton and it's local, a crushed sand. Pro-Angle is much more expensive, partially because of shipping. We also used a great sand while at Colonial what we called "Arkansas sand," because that's where it came from. The Tour pros love it, as it's very white, but VERY angular.

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2011/04/the-bunkers-at-augusta-national-are-spectacular-but-they-are-not-feldspar-sand.htm
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 12:39:30 PM »
Tony,

Have you noticed that the G-Angle is less prone to washing away ?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 02:38:58 PM »
Tony,

Have you noticed that the G-Angle is less prone to washing away ?

We experience nearly no movement at all even with our summer times rains. Our issue tends to be algae because it doesn't move, it packs, moisture sits in the faces. It's a GREAT angular sand that packs incredibly well
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2016, 03:16:16 PM »
Still struggling with this at my home club with no apparent affordable solution.

A few thoughts / questions:

The obvious answer is don't have so many bunkers on clay soil. However I've yet to see a filled in bunker that even 15 years later isn't clearly a filled in bunker. It just doesn't look right. Does anyone have any examples of areas that used to be bunkers, done well? Either as short grass or actual grass bunkers?

An average uk club doesn't have the resource during growing season to refurbish the bunkers, so the option is piece meal doing a few every winter when machinery on a wet course Dec - Feb can itself be problematic on clay soil.

The option then becomes contractors and the cost of a liner, new sand, renewed drains and just a ring of turf (no new shaping) is eye watering and came in roughly 3 times the annual maintenance budget. And for what? Square one in 3 - 4 years.

What is the prudent thing to do in this scenario?

In new construction what % of budget roughly is allocated to bunker materials and construction?

BCowan

Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2016, 03:23:50 PM »
Still struggling with this at my home club with no apparent affordable solution.

A few thoughts / questions:

The obvious answer is don't have so many bunkers on clay soil. However I've yet to see a filled in bunker that even 15 years later isn't clearly a filled in bunker. It just doesn't look right. Does anyone have any examples of areas that used to be bunkers, done well? Either as short grass or actual grass bunkers?

An average uk club doesn't have the resource during growing season to refurbish the bunkers, so the option is piece meal doing a few every winter when machinery on a wet course Dec - Feb can itself be problematic on clay soil.

The option then becomes contractors and the cost of a liner, new sand, renewed drains and just a ring of turf (no new shaping) is eye watering and came in roughly 3 times the annual maintenance budget. And for what? Square one in 3 - 4 years.

What is the prudent thing to do in this scenario?

In new construction what % of budget roughly is allocated to bunker materials and construction?

Ryan,

     I'm about 95% certain that the now grass bunkers were bunkers at this cool Metro Detroit course called Brae Burn.  It's a Reid course and it's all on clay, drains horribly.  Anyway the grass bunkers are super cool imo.  I wish I had taken some photos but we had poor light and it was snowing on a few holes so was rather in a hurry.  I'll get some photos for you at some point. 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2016, 03:37:55 PM »
Still struggling with this at my home club with no apparent affordable solution.

A few thoughts / questions:

The obvious answer is don't have so many bunkers on clay soil. However I've yet to see a filled in bunker that even 15 years later isn't clearly a filled in bunker. It just doesn't look right. Does anyone have any examples of areas that used to be bunkers, done well? Either as short grass or actual grass bunkers?

An average uk club doesn't have the resource during growing season to refurbish the bunkers, so the option is piece meal doing a few every winter when machinery on a wet course Dec - Feb can itself be problematic on clay soil.

The option then becomes contractors and the cost of a liner, new sand, renewed drains and just a ring of turf (no new shaping) is eye watering and came in roughly 3 times the annual maintenance budget. And for what? Square one in 3 - 4 years.

What is the prudent thing to do in this scenario?

In new construction what % of budget roughly is allocated to bunker materials and construction?
Ryan - We trialled lining bunkers with astro turf about 18 months ago and I would say all seems good so far. The good news is the Astro Turf is free. A few companies are giving it away when they re-do hockey or soccer pitches, you might have a goal line or circle on it but it does not matter when its in the ground. The downside is that it is quite heavy comes in 2 x 12 metre strips and you can only really handle 3 x 2 metres with two people.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2016, 05:06:48 PM »
Adrian

It has to be a better way forward than rubber crumb at £30 odd quid a m2.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2016, 06:41:07 PM »
Adrian

It has to be a better way forward than rubber crumb at £30 odd quid a m2.
If you want a 2x12 roll I have some at the moment, you could experiment.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2016, 10:07:54 PM »
with the soil expanding and contracting with freezing and thawing, the clay walls could heave off in sheets

Dunlop,

That's not accurate.

Clay liners are common in severely cold climates because they manage freeze/thaw cycles very well.
They are very common in Canada.

For example, the clay liners in Lookout Point were installed in 1922 and are still there and intact.



To others:

1. Not all clays are the same
2. 90% of contamination is edging bunkers and not created by a clay sub-base.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2016, 12:28:59 AM »
When the ODGs started building golf courses on non-sandy inland sites a century or so ago what a pity that they insisted on importing the alien idea of sand bunkers from the seaside links. How great a proportion of clubs' annual maintenance budget is used keeping bunkers in a reasonable condition?  Too great.


If only Braid, Colt, MacKenzie et al had foreseen this and come up with hazards more suited to the land on which they were now commissioned to build courses. For all Dr Mac's claims to a "natural" look he did dot his inland courses with an awful  lot of very unnatural sand bunkers!


As it is, we're more or less stuck with them. Attempts to grass over problematic or little-used bunkers are met with understandable protestations that this would compromise the original design intent of the now legendary architect.


Ryan sums up the problems faced by the average club very well. I'm not sure that there are easy solutions.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 12:33:32 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2016, 12:33:23 AM »
Ian

re number 2 above, what is the alternative? Not to edge or some sort of synthetic material for that area between grass and sand?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2016, 10:45:19 AM »
with the soil expanding and contracting with freezing and thawing, the clay walls could heave off in sheets

Dunlop,

That's not accurate.

Clay liners are common in severely cold climates because they manage freeze/thaw cycles very well.
They are very common in Canada.

For example, the clay liners in Lookout Point were installed in 1922 and are still there and intact.



To others:

1. Not all clays are the same
2. 90% of contamination is edging bunkers and not created by a clay sub-base.

Ian,
I don't think Dunlop means a "clay liner" but just a clay site like we have down here.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clay Contamination - Bunkers
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 09:19:29 PM »
Ian

re number 2 above, what is the alternative? Not to edge or some sort of synthetic material for that area between grass and sand?

You can create a living lip.
It's done with turf, has the same sharp features.
Maintenance can be tricky if you want the turf short.
It prevents soil contamination by removing exposed soil.

There's at least four ways to build them.
In the land of clay topsoil we hand shape them from our heavy topsoil after packing the banks with a mini-ex.
Lighter soils require more creative ways like biodegradable burlap bags full of soil, etc.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back