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Howard Riefs

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #75 on: August 06, 2014, 05:56:35 PM »
Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?

That would be cool, but it sure wouldn't work with cart paths!

Can we expect a few more miles of scored cart paths? Not very minimalist.





"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jud_T

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Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2014, 06:05:27 PM »
Actually the cart paths might be one of the most challenging things to design aesthetically....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2014, 06:44:01 PM »
To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?

What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"?  If
The value is that it will likely lead to more people staying at the resort for an extra day in order to play the reverse routing. Quite ingenious actually. Build a course that functions as two courses, for less money, less use of land and less cost to maintain, AND get people to stay longer to play it. Great business model!

If your resort is crowded, you can increase play by starting players on 1 and 18 the the same time  ;)

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2014, 07:10:16 PM »
There's at least one in every crowd...

Whitten throws some cold water on the reversible design concept:

"At Forest Dunes, the reason seems to be solely to attract attention.  Which means the biggest obstacle Doak and his client will face with their new project is public acceptance of the concept. What sounds great in theory, what looks great on paper, doesn’t always sell well at the box office. ... Personally, I find Doak’s project exciting. But I hope one potentially great design doesn’t get sacrificed in the effort to create two novel ones."

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/tom-doak-is-designing-a-revers.html
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2014, 07:16:40 PM »
Unless he has actual inside knowledge of the owner's motives, I'm not sure why he'd print this.  He's excited about the concept but it's all a PR stunt?!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2014, 08:36:56 PM »
To ask a question that I am sure is a bit too simplistic, Why?

What is the intrinsic value of a course that can be played "both way"?  If
The value is that it will likely lead to more people staying at the resort for an extra day in order to play the reverse routing. Quite ingenious actually. Build a course that functions as two courses, for less money, less use of land and less cost to maintain, AND get people to stay longer to play it. Great business model!

If your resort is crowded, you can increase play by starting players on 1 and 18 the the same time  ;)

LOL, have you been to Painswick?   The incoming players have the right of way on those shared fairways!   It's unique....

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2014, 08:41:19 PM »
 8) don;t outgoing players have right of way at TOC?


Did I miss it, but doesn't 18 reversible holes give FD 54 holes instead of 36?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2014, 10:27:14 PM »
Unless he has actual inside knowledge of the owner's motives, I'm not sure why he'd print this.  He's excited about the concept but it's all a PR stunt?!

I think Whitten is on to something.  We always talk about finding great holes and Doak himself had always said that the best courses get the most out of the property.  There is no way that both of those can be accomplished and have the course be a reversible one.  Am I interested to see it?  Absolutely, it's a course by one of the greatest living designers.  Do I think sacrifices must have been made to achieve reversibility?  Absolutely.  Therefore this could be more sizzle than steak.  Only seeing the course will tell.  Like I said though, Doak is one who could pull this off.

Either way, I wonder if the 18th returns close to the 1st or rather, the 1st to the 18th :D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Bowen

Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2014, 10:49:13 PM »
Really excited to see the finished routing.  I assume not all greens will be approached from opposite directions.  Some might be approached from 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock.  I think this would be a perfect opportunity to use a biarritz green.  The trench would run perpendicular on one routing and parallel to the line of play in the other routing.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2014, 12:01:03 AM »
A few more articles....

Golf Digest
"A reversible golf course? Tom Doak's plan for Forest Dunes is a course you can play two ways"
http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/goose-bump-city-how-tom-doak-w.html

Golf.com
"Doak to design reversible course at Michigan’s Forest Dunes"
http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/doak-design-reversible-course-michigan’s-forest-dunes

Golf Course Architecture
"Tom Doak and Brian Slawnik to design reversible course in northern Michigan"
http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Tom-Doak-and-Brian-Slawnik-to-design-reversible-course-in-northern-Michigan/3192/Default.aspx#.U-L4j9q9KSM

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2014, 05:32:43 AM »
Unless he has actual inside knowledge of the owner's motives, I'm not sure why he'd print this.  He's excited about the concept but it's all a PR stunt?!

I think Whitten is on to something.  We always talk about finding great holes and Doak himself had always said that the best courses get the most out of the property.  There is no way that both of those can be accomplished and have the course be a reversible one.  Am I interested to see it?  Absolutely, it's a course by one of the greatest living designers.  Do I think sacrifices must have been made to achieve reversibility?  Absolutely.  Therefore this could be more sizzle than steak.  Only seeing the course will tell.  Like I said though, Doak is one who could pull this off.

Either way, I wonder if the 18th returns close to the 1st or rather, the 1st to the 18th :D

JC,

If you had a perfectly flat site why would this be the case?  Maybe that means by definition that we're not talking about world beaters, but conceptually I think it's all about the property, in reverse. ;)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 05:34:37 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2014, 08:03:16 AM »
I just think the question will always be out there as to whether the course could have been better if it sacrifices didn't have to be made to make it reversible.  That was Whitten's point and I think that's valid.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #87 on: August 07, 2014, 08:45:45 AM »
Would there be more variety between the two courses if the second "course" was more of a cross country affair playing in all directions across the "original" routing instead of just a reverse of the "original"? In that scenario I would envision a lot of expansive shared fairway areas to make it possible. Would this be significantly harder to design than a reversed course?

That would be cool, but it sure wouldn't work with cart paths!
Cart paths in N Michigan, why?


A non cart path course would be optimal for sure, perhaps the owners will see the advantage to not having any.

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #88 on: August 07, 2014, 09:18:56 AM »
PICANTICO HILLS !!!   William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s.   It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.

Bill,

Is this it?

https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&cid=698959469598718721&q=Kykuit,+the+Rockefeller+Estate&sa=X&ei=j3DhU7ndF8_poAT444LgAQ&ved=0CIoBEPwSMAo

Looks like the bunkers are totally intact and perhaps the whole course?

Cheers



It should be directly EAST of that point - there is a label "New Croton Aqueduct" near it.   I will try to call a friend who may be aware of the current status of the course.

Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Stephen Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #89 on: August 07, 2014, 01:06:36 PM »
PICANTICO HILLS !!!   William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s.   It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.

Bill,

Is this it?

https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&fb=1&gl=us&cid=698959469598718721&q=Kykuit,+the+Rockefeller+Estate&sa=X&ei=j3DhU7ndF8_poAT444LgAQ&ved=0CIoBEPwSMAo

Looks like the bunkers are totally intact and perhaps the whole course?

Cheers



It should be directly EAST of that point - there is a label "New Croton Aqueduct" near it.   I will try to call a friend who may be aware of the current status of the course.

Wm Flynnfan
If you scroll directly east a tiny bit, you should see the label that says "New Croton Aqueduct". Looks well kept and very neat layout from what I can see.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2014, 05:10:13 PM »
PICANTICO HILLS !!!   William Flynn designed a reversible nine – really ten holes for the Rockefellers on their estate at Kykuit – Tarrytown,NY in the 1930s.   It will be a treat to see Mr. Doak bring this concept alive again.

I was fortunate enough to play the Picantico course about 15 years ago when it was still being maintained.  It wound around a crescent shaped hill that surrounded the main house and the “Playhouse” that served as clubhouse in addition to having a gym, squash court etc etc.    My host stated that it was “Flynn’s best design”.

After completing the front nine which basically wound around the hill, the tenth tee was to the right of the ninth green and you played back down the 9th fairway and continued.  As I recall the 18th hole was a separate par three that went back to the Playhouse.   We played the back nine with the “Hicks” – my host’s hickory shafted clubs.  I birdied the 18th – sinking a putt with a Calamity Jane style putter.

The fairways were somewhat wide and without many bunkers, and the greens were interesting – they flowed out from the side of the hill.  The views of the Hudson River and the Valley looking up the bend in the river were staggering.

It takes a truly private club with essentially no or few other players to get in 18 holes with this routing scheme.

I had heard that it was not being maintained, but a quick look on Google maps and it appears that the greens, tees and bunkers are mostly still intact.

I believe there is a discussion of the course in the 2009 Wayne Morrison interview on GCA.  The section on Picantico Hills in NATURE FAKER is really fascinating.

Wm Flynnfan


I cannot find this course on Google maps?????? Can you post an aerial view?
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2014, 05:33:38 PM »
I cannot find this course on Google maps?????? Can you post an aerial view?

South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2014, 05:10:08 PM »
8) don;t outgoing players have right of way at TOC?


Well yes, but those are double fairways.  At Painswick you are sharing a single fairway!   If nobody had the right of way it would give a whole new meaning to "The Duel Hole."   ;D

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

JBovay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2014, 07:06:03 AM »
I've been fascinated by all this discussion on reversible courses in the last couple of weeks. Apologies for joining the discussion after the excitement's died down, but other things kept me busy.

I played a Hale Irwin design near Driggs, ID (Teton Reserve, or was it Teton Reverse?) that was a reversible routing, so the concept is far from new. However, I expect TD and crew to make it work in a way that it likely hasn't in previous attempts.(In a positive way).

I checked out this course via Google Earth a while back--only because I had a look at the site while it was still in the permitting stage--and had no inkling that it was reversible. Today, I checked again and it's still hard to see. What's more interesting is that when I checked out both Dismal Red and Wolf Point the same way, I found parts of each course that looked as if they were designed to be reversible. (Comments on these threads do confirm that's not the case.)

Looking at the overhead of Teton Reserve does help justify the case against cart paths. Though, of course, even the Old Course has a cart path, so it can be done!


Read Tom Simpson's piece on it


Thanks, Frank. This is the most lucid and one of the most captivating pieces I've read in a long time. I'm going to be sure to read Simpson's book soon.


I did play The Old Course in reverse a few years back, when we took George Bahto over to Scotland before we started Old Macdonald.  It doesn't work so well now, because they've stopped mowing the approaches into some greens as played in reverse; and it was clearly not nearly as interesting of a course playing down the left side.  That will be the real challenge of this design, to get it where not everyone has thinks that clockwise is better than anti-clockwise [or vice versa :) ].

It took quite a while before people began to prefer the modern routing of the Old Course to the clockwise one, right? It must be the case that, in addition to the playability problems created by mowing patterns in recent years, there have been subtler changes to TOC over the years that strengthen the counter-clockwise outing relative to the clockwise. For instance, whenever bunkers have been modified, the decisions about how exactly to build them must have reflected more about strategic play on the modern routing. To whatever extent greens and other contours were modified in the 20th century (I'm not knowledgeable about the entire history of changes to the course), these decisions must have also been made in the same way. And of course, we should remember that the tee boxes used today were not always there.

JB

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2014, 04:07:43 PM »
It took quite a while before people began to prefer the modern routing of the Old Course to the clockwise one, right? It must be the case that, in addition to the playability problems created by mowing patterns in recent years, there have been subtler changes to TOC over the years that strengthen the counter-clockwise outing relative to the clockwise. For instance, whenever bunkers have been modified, the decisions about how exactly to build them must have reflected more about strategic play on the modern routing. To whatever extent greens and other contours were modified in the 20th century (I'm not knowledgeable about the entire history of changes to the course), these decisions must have also been made in the same way. And of course, we should remember that the tee boxes used today were not always there.

JB

Actually, I think we all read the history of The Old Course a bit wrong in this regard.

For hundreds of years, The Old Course was really an 11-hole and then a 9-hole reversible course ... you played out to the greens, and then played back along the same narrow path to the same greens.

It was only after golf became popular and the course had to be widened in the 1800's, that the present "right-handed" course [or the left-handed one] was perceived.  But I think it wasn't long after that, that the right-handed course came to be considered the "main" course, and the left-handed course was used mostly in winter to rest the landing areas of the main route.

So, while the left-handed course was not used as much as some imagine, in fact The Old Course was played forwards and backwards from day one.  And, if you think about it, most of the famous holes were played backwards ... on the way back in.

Matt Frey, PGA

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2014, 11:20:38 AM »
The September 2014 issue of The Met Golfer Traveler features a little blurb about Doak's reversible course at Forest Dunes: http://www.metgolferdigital.com/i/374725/10

Mr. Doak also graces the cover the the e-pub.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2014, 02:17:18 PM »
It's interesting to see how many "articles" have been generated by our press release.  I haven't actually done any interviews about the project yet, other than answering questions on GCA, so everything you've seen is a re-write of the press release.

We are 30 days out from starting work on the first few holes; I'll have my whole team over there in ten days to walk through it.  Once I've got some holes done for people to analyze, I'll try to do a better, real-world job of explaining how the design works ... not sure whether that'll be this winter or next spring. 

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #98 on: September 05, 2014, 10:29:34 PM »
 8) So who gets to drive the little dozer first?



are you going to open burn the piles of trees and shrubs?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike Bowen

Re: Forest Dunes Begins Work on Second Golf Course
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2014, 01:04:25 AM »
Steve,

Like!

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