[Mike_Trenham]

St Davids Golf Club Wayne

Our greens have grain which runs with the contours so putts that are downhill or across a slope turn lots more than at most places I play.  Three foot puts that break make golf interesting.

The course has a good rhythm of easy holes followed by much more difficult holes.  The last three holes are not back breakers so if you have a good round going it is just a test of yout nerves to finish off a good round (also fewer strokes in net matches at the end makes it fun).

Our tree management is in the top tier.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark

You aren't going to like this, but homerism in the form of Dealies saw me slowly upgrade my opinion of Deal.  Without Dealies hammering on me (in the most polite fashion   I would never have gone back.  There are still elements which turn me off, but its hard to fathom how anybody could say the course isn't great.  The many members would say stuff and when I would go back I looked for confirmation.  I never bought into the greatness of the 3s like the Dealies do (but give me time), but I do buy into #7.  I am still not keen on the fairway bunkering, but the green is outstanding.  I eventually asked the question why Deal isn't a top 100 world course and the answer basically came down to a lack of visuals   - heavy sigh.  Thats a great pity because for the most part, the terrain at Deal is perfect for golf and remains its best asset.  

To be sure, I think you would greatly enjoy one of your week long study trips of Deal. If I am not mistaken, you hit Ganton, Rye and Westward Ho! already.  Maybe we shall see you next year in Kent, if you can learn to tone down the Dealie rhetoric without ignoring it

Talking of my home course, I don't think many Brits miss its quallity, but most Yanks do.  Invariably, the flat holes are cited as issues while I think they are positive for the design.  Holes such as 7 & 11 are easy to forget because they are flat (but not featureless), but they are two of the best on the course. The 7th is the one hole I usually point out as outstanding in its simplicity and deception of ease.  Golf should be a game of variety and if we just want visuals all day we will end up with a ton of Ballybunion Cashen courses populating the earth.  

Ciao

Sean,

Deal? Never. Anyway, I would be disappointed only if you didn't acknowledge your revelations were not a case of "Deal Exceptionalism." There are plenty of other links out there for which substantial new discoveries are the reward for repeated play. It was nice to see you keep an open mind about Ganton. If that's the result of the scales falling from your eyes as you gazed to the Channel, so be it.

And of course this is why links golf is the best golf, by far.

BTW I suspect my next expedition will be...Westward Ho! Still plenty to learn and most importantly to enjoy out there. What a fascinating course -- which, by the way, I feel is more accurately called "Modernist", perhaps even the original minimalist course. Other than conditioning, which I accept is a big deal in this, why do people think of the course as somehow prehistoric when it was designed in 1908 and by Fowler no less? He designed RND after WHO, for starters. If people want to say fantastic ground movement is not fair and that fair is the sine qua non of modern courses, then okay. I guess. Taking the ground as you find it and use it seems a pretty popular notion today.

I digress.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What do you know that they don't?

First, I think "pride" plays a significant part.
Secondly, I think "objectivity" doesn't always reside with the member.
Thirdly, sometimes the visitor doesn't see or recognize features that don't directly interact with their play.

Is there much you could teach them they don't learn from a single visit?

I think that's almost a universal

What's an example of something you know that everyone else misses when they blow through?

Most miss an abundance of things that their play doesn't bring them into contact with.

Golfers, while playing golf, tend to have a narrow focus.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

My home course is Springdale Golf club in Princeton, NJ.

The golf course is situated on less than 100 acres and William Flynn did a complete renovation of the golf course in 1926. While not rising to the level of Merion's courses it is evocative of both of them in the small, tightly bunkered green complexes bound into  a small property while not feeling cramped. We also have the benefit of having an "in town" feel with magnificent architecture adjoining the golf course including the Princeton Seminary as well as the Princeton University Graduate College and their tower which contains a fabulous Carillon who's bells can be heard each Sunday at midday chiming both classical as well as renditions of popular music.

The golf course is subtle and quite deceptive. Many holes play downhill where approach shots are 1/2 to a full club less than the sprinkler head yardage while appearing level. Looking back from the green one is astonished at the tilt of the land that is barely perceivable standing in the fairway.

Best of all it is easily walkable and the majority of our members walk and carry their own bag. Not a problem getting a game, just show up and sling the bag over your shoulder and head out.

The more golf I play at multiple great courses the more I have come to appreciate Springdale.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Malcolm,

Springdale is a pretty neat local course.
I always enjoyed playing there.

I haven't seen it since the most recent revision, but, intend to in the not too distant future.

I liked the variety it offered.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

Let me know when you would like to come. I would be pleased to host you.

Didn't you tell me that you played in a major qualifier at Springdale at some point in your early golfing career and made it at some point in the past?

Best,

Malcolm

[Patrick_Mucci]

Malcolm,

Yes, your memory is keen.

I qualified for my first State Open at Springdale in the mid-60's and remember the Doors singing "Light My Fire" on the radio on my ride home.

I also blew a USGA Sr Am qualifier when I thought I needed a birdie on the 18th hole and got too aggressive with my play.

I also liked the "in town" feel, the bell  tower and the peach melba.

Thanks for the invite, it's very kind of you.

Maybe in the fall.

Stay well and enjoy Springdale.

Does Harry Brenner still play there or is he now in Florida full time ?

[Michael Goldstein]

My home club - Paraparaumu Beach - is better than most think because:

1.  The routing is awesome.  I can play 18 holes in 2 hours. I can play a variety of different loops.  It's a compact property.
2.  The short par fours are incredible.  The fairway on the 6th hole is wild but you start to understand how it plays.  The 10th hole has genuine options from the tee depending on wind, pin placement and the state of one's game.

On the other hand, PBGC is worse because:

1.  Neighbours have intervened and caused two original holes to be modified. One in particular (the 9th) to the detriment of the course.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Patrick,

Fall is good. Please PM me.

I am heading to Edinburgh, UK for the the month of August!

Malcolm

[Jud_T]

My home course, Kingsley, is already a GCA darling.  However, a couple of points.  First, the turf.  Possibly the finest sand based F&F links turf this side of Dover, and a too rare commodity on this side of the pond.  Only Ballyneal and the courses at Bandon are in the same league of those I've played.  The drainage is second to none.  I once saw a bit of water puddling in a bunker on 18 after a torrential rain and it was like a rare bird sighting. Secondly, there are so many dramatic features at Kingsley that a lot of subtler things are overlooked by the first time visitor, including:

1.  Lies in the fairway.  There are a variety of spots where the ball is above or below you're feet depending on what line you take off the tee (and of course whether you're a southpaw or not), particularly on #'s 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, 14, 15 & 18.

2. Subtleties in the greens, particularly on #'s 1, 2, 7, 8, 11, 12, 15 & 17

3. Numerous ways to use the ground game or chip/putt an indirect route to get near pins, particularly on #'s 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17 & 18.

4.  The fun that can be had by playing it forward due to the significant slope in some of the fairways, particularly on #'s 1, 3, 4, 6, 14, 15, 17 & 18.  This can play havoc with setting wagers relative to one's course handicap and allows for significant arbitrage opportunities for the spiv who is so inclined.

5.  Because of the aforementioned turf and subtle ground game options, it must also qualify as one of the better hickory venues around.

6.  A number of holes are underrated by folks here IMO:

#8-  a seemingly easy short 4.  The carry over the bunkers on the hill off the tee isn't too taxing and many simply club down to stay short of the large fairway bunker.  This however usually ends up with a subtly non- level lie.  The better play, albeit longer, is often to go down the left side which leaves a level lie and a better angle of approach to utilize the backstop on the hill behind the green.  The green itself repels balls on 3 sides and may well be the finest green on the course.

#11- this hole is not as visually stunning as many others and at first glance appears to be nothing more than a simple connector hole to transition to the wooded part of the property.  However this is a devilish green with a spine running from back to front that repels anything too far right well down the hill.  There's a tough little back shelf and the wind often swirls on this part of the property making club selection quite tricky.  I now prefer the hole to the much more in-your-face and much beloved #5.

#15- a lot of guys whine that this hole is unreachable in reg for all but the real bombers and that the green is too small and non-receptive for such a long hole.  Who said you have the right to be on in reg?  This is the only man-made green on the course and it's a real beaut.  This is one of my favorite holes, which is surprising for anyone familiar with my crap game.

[Mac Plumart]

It isn't.

Other than for blinkered/biased reasons.

It is usually to do with everything other than the actual course.

The people, the traditions, the atmosphere, the competition, your personal history of triumph and disaster.

In my experience, most people fall into two categories when assessing their own course. 1. The grass is greener, everywhere else is better etc etc and they spend most of their time at their Club talking it down or 2. Irrational and illogical elevation of status to run of mill holes that most visitors forget/hate. Their featureless, uninteresting course becomes "subtle". So subtle that it doesn't exist other than as a figment of their imagination.

They play because that's where they've always played and that's where their mates play.

Not if you choose to join a club because you love the course... As opposed to loving the course because you are a member of the course.

Exactly!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Fall is good. Please PM me.

I am heading to Edinburgh, UK for the the month of August!


I'm jealous !

[Kevin_D]

St Davids Golf Club Wayne

Our greens have grain which runs with the contours so putts that are downhill or across a slope turn lots more than at most places I play.  Three foot puts that break make golf interesting.

The course has a good rhythm of easy holes followed by much more difficult holes.  The last three holes are not back breakers so if you have a good round going it is just a test of yout nerves to finish off a good round (also fewer strokes in net matches at the end makes it fun).

Our tree management is in the top tier.

It also used to have some really top tier caddies, though I hear the quality started declining 15 years ago or so... 

[Mark Johnson]

I think my home course, Town & Country Club ("T&C") in St. Paul, MN, is better than "everyone" thinks. I say that primarily because when I moved to the Twin Cities in 2011 and you would talk to people about the best golf courses in the area almost no one mentioned the course as even noteworthy, to me at least. Most people when they think of golf in the Twin Cities list off Hazeltine, Interlachen, Minikahda, WBYC, etc., and those are all great clubs, however as the first golf course in Minnesota, T&C has plenty working in its favor to warrant at least discussion for the following reasons:

Variety
T&C has a unique routing which features back-to-back par-3's on #2 & #3, back-to-back-to-back par-5's on #15, #16, & #17, and a par-3 finishing hole. In fact, you don't play a par-4 after the 13th hole yet the course's par is 72. There is great variety in each type of hole...par 3's play as short as 110 yards (#2) and as long as 230 yards (#14), par-4's play as short as 280 yards (#13) or as long as 470 yards (#6), and par-5's play as short as 490 yards (#4) and as long as 555 yards (#15). There are steeply uphill, downhill, and sidehill holes.

Quirk
The course sits on a high bluff above the Mississippi River and is bisected by an old ravine resulting in some wild terrain. The only wilder terrain locally that I've seen is WBYC, and even that isn't too far off. That wild terrain results in some serious quirk a la blind shots (both uphill & downhill), consistently uneven lies, and times when you need to play "break" on your tee shot toward the fairway with a driver in your hand in order to get your ball to the best spots.

Fun Greens
While largely classic back-to-front sloping greens they can be downright nasty with their "summer cut" and players putting off the green a common occurrence on #5, #17, and #18. There are built up greens with sharp angles (the green on #2 would fit right in at Lawsonia Links) on the sides and behind the hole, a green "benched" into a hillside, and greens that flow right from the fairway like on #12.

Conditioning
The condition of the golf course is consistently excellent. Due to its location, it naturally drains incredibly well resulting in truly firm & fast conditions even when the rest of the area's courses are "under water" as they were last week. The course doesn't get much play (about 17,000 rounds/year on average) which helps, but the greens & fairways are consistently fast and smooth and the turf is in very good health. The club is lucky to have a world-class head superintendent, Bill Larson, who has been with the club for over 25 years, and a state-of-the art maintenance facility (http://www.clubandresortbusiness.com/2010/12/01/designing-state-of-the-art-agronomy-centers/).

Playability
With no forced carries, the ability to run shots onto greens on approaches, and only one water hazard (a stream running down the length of the first hole) the golf course is very playable for higher handicaps while remaining difficult for low handicappers.

Easy Walk
Even while the terrain is extreme, green-to-tee walks are nearly non-existent and the course can be easily walked/played in under 3 hours.

Sorry for the "homer" post...however I find it to be a neat course and place.

Great point Pat.   I think playability is dramatically underrated.    That is the biggest issue with my home course in in my opinion.  (we have at least 2 sets of stakes in play on 13 holes.

[Sean_A]

Mark

You aren't going to like this, but homerism in the form of Dealies saw me slowly upgrade my opinion of Deal.  Without Dealies hammering on me (in the most polite fashion   I would never have gone back.  There are still elements which turn me off, but its hard to fathom how anybody could say the course isn't great.  The many members would say stuff and when I would go back I looked for confirmation.  I never bought into the greatness of the 3s like the Dealies do (but give me time), but I do buy into #7.  I am still not keen on the fairway bunkering, but the green is outstanding.  I eventually asked the question why Deal isn't a top 100 world course and the answer basically came down to a lack of visuals   - heavy sigh.  Thats a great pity because for the most part, the terrain at Deal is perfect for golf and remains its best asset.  

To be sure, I think you would greatly enjoy one of your week long study trips of Deal. If I am not mistaken, you hit Ganton, Rye and Westward Ho! already.  Maybe we shall see you next year in Kent, if you can learn to tone down the Dealie rhetoric without ignoring it

Talking of my home course, I don't think many Brits miss its quallity, but most Yanks do.  Invariably, the flat holes are cited as issues while I think they are positive for the design.  Holes such as 7 & 11 are easy to forget because they are flat (but not featureless), but they are two of the best on the course. The 7th is the one hole I usually point out as outstanding in its simplicity and deception of ease.  Golf should be a game of variety and if we just want visuals all day we will end up with a ton of Ballybunion Cashen courses populating the earth.  

Ciao

Sean,

Deal? Never. Anyway, I would be disappointed only if you didn't acknowledge your revelations were not a case of "Deal Exceptionalism." There are plenty of other links out there for which substantial new discoveries are the reward for repeated play. It was nice to see you keep an open mind about Ganton. If that's the result of the scales falling from your eyes as you gazed to the Channel, so be it.

And of course this is why links golf is the best golf, by far.

BTW I suspect my next expedition will be...Westward Ho! Still plenty to learn and most importantly to enjoy out there. What a fascinating course -- which, by the way, I feel is more accurately called "Modernist", perhaps even the original minimalist course. Other than conditioning, which I accept is a big deal in this, why do people think of the course as somehow prehistoric when it was designed in 1908 and by Fowler no less? He designed RND after WHO, for starters. If people want to say fantastic ground movement is not fair and that fair is the sine qua non of modern courses, then okay. I guess. Taking the ground as you find it and use it seems a pretty popular notion today.

I digress.

Mark

Digression can be good.

Deal is a bit of an exception if only because the terrain is so damn good.  That same terrain produces a fine set of greens as well. 

It was my impression that RND was considered quite modern when Fowler redesigned the course.  It was very long with relatively light bunkering and rough (smash mouth golf!) and used the available features very well.  Unfortunately, there are enough holes which aren't abundantly gifted with features to tilt the head a bit.  RND does unfold in chapters with wet, boggy starting the story, then moving to the pebble beach holes (the highlight), then moving to the boggy rushes (heavy sigh), then moving to open country before coming home over some more boggy land.  I think you get the idea for me, the quality of the turf is not good enough to be considered top notch golf.  However, I think some (most especially Fowler) thought it good enough to host an Open. In its day, RND must have been brutally difficult.   

Did you manage to secure membership?

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean,

Yes, I advise to proceed under caution as your correspondent has made the evolutionary jump to one step below A Space Odyssey's Star Child: the Royal North Devon Man.   

I guess it is inevitable that discussions of RND's architecture involve conditioning. I wonder what that says about golf architecture and about golfers too -- discussion topics in and of themselves. As for you and me, it seems we know the course under vastly different conditions. So much so that we might as well be talking about different courses -- maybe akin to Ran and John Morrissett's contrasting profiles of Rye.

My week there came after several weeks of no rain. Combine that with long days full of sunshine and I played a course under perfect links conditions. Completely baked out yet true to its contours. (The greens rolled nicely.) My week came with a softening rain towards the end of the week, yes, and I thought of your past comments as I saw a small puddle or two in the hollows of footpaths. But nothing on the course: well, actually, the greens turned green (but otherwise played the same).

Under these conditions the green complexes required thought all the way back on the tee as to how the hole should be played and inspired the golfer to think creatively and to make hard assessments of his game. Did I mention it is always windy at Westward Ho! ?

And so as regards your comments: none, not one, of the holes was 'boggy' or anything other than bouncy. The cost of rough was almost nil as it was chewed down and wispy. (Well, for most of the week. Post rain it did become heavyish and grippy. But nothing soul crushing or ball eating.)

Let me say a few words about the maligned 1,2,17, and 18 holes. 2 is an excellent hole full of strategy and interest, 1 is very good but I suspect requires the conditions I saw to 'perform' properly. 17 does require thought and whatever shot you take into the green will be interesting. 18 is...well. Not awful. Just about execution as there doesn't seem to be any real strategy to the thing. The green's false front combines with the ditch though to raise the interest of the second shot (and, possibly, the third  ).

All of which is to suggest your 'Revelations, Deal' should be not a book but a chapter. Have you played RND under fast and firm conditions?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Now that we have established that RND has one of your many home courses....

No, I never played RND in good nick, though I did play it twice in summer  

I wasn't sufficiently impressed to go back.  RND has stretches of holes which remind me of North Berwick's 3rd or 8th.  Not bad holes, but nothing to drool over and certainly not why one plays the course - RND strikes me as having too much of this sort happening.  And I have always maintained that the rush holes can be make or break.  I don't like the holes in the least even though I applaud the use of rare and nasty feature.  Still, at the end of the day, they could be gorse bushes and that isn't good golf imo.  Maybe one day I shall make it back, but I shall be secure in the knowledge that the famous pic is actually a small percentage of the course  

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean, well I think the whole point of this and the other discussion is holes / courses that are 'nothing to drool over' -- at least until you've built a store of experience by which to judge. What is your opinion of the ground movement on holes 3-16?

[Sean_A]

Mark

I guess the point for me is how flatter holes can enhance a design, not how flat courses can be winners.  But we can go that way if you like.  Enhancing a design with flat holes is a tough ask.  Burnham does it well (he says at the risk of being labelled a homer) as do Hoylake and Huntercombe.  I don't know of a flat course (assuming Alwoodley, Little Aston, Sacred 9 & Ganton don't qualify as flat) I would call great, but there are a few I wouldn't mind playing out my days on if circumstances were different. 

As I say, along the pebble beach there is some excellent ground movement, but away from the pebbles the land is much less enchanting.  I may go back on 1 August on my way down to Cornwall just to have another look.  The reasonable green fee and attractive club make another visit not overly onerous. 

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

By flat I take it you mean lack of elevation change rather than ground movement. Elevation change is important but for me personally it's not the be-all and end-all; to the topic of this thread it can be a case of tastes great at first only to grow tiresome with repeated consumption.

And if there's a menu of ingredients that comprise 'subtle', of types of features that many golfers fail to fully comprehend or perhaps even notice -- fail to claim as 'memorable' -- then ground contours must be on it. The Rushes Holes at RND are mainly flat but the ground movement supplies the interest and, in the cases of the 9th and 10th holes, the elemental strategy (as opposed to only an execution challenge associated with an odd lie).

I do think elevation change is *one* of the elements that make the 6th interesting, yes. But there's a lot more going on than a simple drop to the fairway followed by a rise to the green: the visual is fully integrated into the play of the hole (Line of Charm). When played under proper links conditions the ground movement combines with the bunkering, the view, and the elevation change to produce an interesting hole.

Mark

[Josh Tarble]

Ah!  Here's the proper thread...

I would never say my home course (Broadmoor CC, Indianapolis) is the best course ever.  But I do love playing it everyday and it's one of the best options in a town full of good choices.

But it's really better than most because 1) the greens are awesome  2) it's 18 holes of solid golf, nothing spectacular but certainly no clunkers 3) we have a great super (Chris Hague) that does a fantastic job with minimal resources 4) its a great walking course 5) great people

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