Trump's plans for Turnberry

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't think the point of the change to 18 is straightening it. The purpose is to get the tee up above the water (and also to make the hole a bit longer).

[Niall C]

Adam

Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.

Niall

[Keith Phillips]

Just watching the outstanding video posted by Michael Graham - love the changes but have a question about #9.  When I have played Turnberry I was always under the impression that the ruins near the lighthouse were from a castle believed to be the birthplace of Robert the Bruce?  I presume that was malarkey, or they wouldn't be removing those ruins to create the new Par-3 green?  I'm also curious whether they could retain some of the wall and factor it into the design of the hole, a la The Pit hole at North Berwick...perhaps too penal on a long par 3 over water.

[Adam Lawrence]

Just watching the outstanding video posted by Michael Graham - love the changes but have a question about #9.  When I have played Turnberry I was always under the impression that the ruins near the lighthouse were from a castle believed to be the birthplace of Robert the Bruce?  I presume that was malarkey, or they wouldn't be removing those ruins to create the new Par-3 green?  I'm also curious whether they could retain some of the wall and factor it into the design of the hole, a la The Pit hole at North Berwick...perhaps too penal on a long par 3 over water.

The walled area where the new green is to be built was the lighthouse keeper's garden.

[David Davis]

Great video, I was excited for these changes to be released. Since the course is fresh in my mind I can only see huge improvements here that make the most of some of the unique coast line of the property. Brilliant for tourism of course, this will keep Americans flocking there by the plane loads. All good news for the local economy no doubt.

What I don't understand is indeed how are the investments which are enormous on some of Trump's courses justified in terms of ROI?

It's quite hard to achieve ROI on golf courses when we talk about multi million dollar investments. Even if it is Turnberry.

Would be interesting to see the business case for this.

[Ben Stephens]

I can see some improvements to the course. I am not too sure having 4 par 3s in the first 11 holes it feels really imbalanced

Surely the 9th could be a risk and reward short par 4 of 280 or 290 yards rather than a long par 3 for pros and shorter par 3 tees which takes the water out of play. This would enable average golfers to use the unique tee to aim for the green or lay up.

Not too sure about making 4 longer - its already a great hole and 6 shorter which is weird. Also 14 is already a strong par 4 which is turned into a weaker par 5.

For me these changes make the course easier in relation to par than the current one which I have played.

[Adam Lawrence]

Ben - various of the changes are necessary to make others possible. See the article I just posted on our site, which has an exclusive interview with Martin. Basically the desire to put the 18th tee on the dune wall drove much of the other stuff.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adam

Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.

Niall

Niall,

obviously Mr. Trump has not played much links golf in Scotland. The top tees at Balmedie are unplayable in anything above a stiff breeze.

I agree with Ben's comments about 9 being a good opportunity to make a better short 4 than 3.

Jon

[Ben Stephens]

Ben - various of the changes are necessary to make others possible. See the article I just posted on our site, which has an exclusive interview with Martin. Basically the desire to put the 18th tee on the dune wall drove much of the other stuff.

Yes I know that but I don't see 18 being a better hole than the current dogleg left one isn't that the only Open finishing hole that dogleg left?

Still don't think it feels like a traditional British Open links course it feels like it has been Americanised so that it looks more spectacular so it will be the most un Open like course on the rota.

Surely the change on 18 shouldn't really affect 9 being a short par 4 rather than a par 3. the New hole 4, 9 and 11 are too similar and there is not much variation from the look of it. Having played Turnberry and seen it still think the current one is a better course than the changes proposed. and having 4 par threes in 11 holes will make the course slower to play in the beginning.

The Open does not have very many short par 4's

I am up for changes but my gut feeling is this proposal takes the course backwards it is just a personal opinion.

Woe be tide (hole 4) is a great par 3 why change it???  I will be sad to see it go.

[Alex Miller]

Never played Turnberry but from what I see:

Is rebuilding the first green necessary? 390 seems long enough to deter players from driving the green. I just don't see the point.

Perhaps the current 4th could have been shortened and played from further left, but the new 4th looks intriguing and I think the idea of a straight 18th with an ocean backdrop sounds cool... for 4 days every 5 years. For the rest I'm not sure it's a huge positive. A slightly lessened dogleg and longer hole with the tee below the dune seems just as feasible and better.

I see the opportunity for a short par 4 9th too... but the proposed par 3 looks great. 235 yards is still a fun/brave shot and while there wouldn't be the same risk/reward I think a par 4 would be cramped in that space.

I also have no problem with unbalanced 9's. Kind of nice to see Pacific Dunes-esque features being incorporated into a Trump course.

10 looks like it will be excellent.

As does 11.

I hope 18 works as a straight 4.

[Matthew Rose]

I think it just comes across a little bit like somebody said "well, as long as we're changing two holes, let's change 10 holes" and then they went and contrived a bunch of additional changes.

The ocean holes look like a natural improvement to me, but I'm not convinced all the shifting of the inland holes are necessary.

I honestly couldn't tell you if the new holes would be better or not... it's true, it isn't like Turnberry hasn't been changed many times before. I guess this feels like building a new course over the old one rather than just changing 2-3 holes.

[Ben Stephens]

Adam

Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.

Niall

Niall,

obviously Mr. Trump has not played much links golf in Scotland. The top tees at Balmedie are unplayable in anything above a stiff breeze.

I agree with Ben's comments about 9 being a good opportunity to make a better short 4 than 3.

Jon

Jon,

for Hole 9 I would have kept the walls and used it as OOB. with the green left of it in front of the lighthouse.

I have quickly looked at Google Earth and off the all worldy back tee it is 240ish yards to the wall and 275 yards directly to the middle of the green and the dog leg hole would be 310-320 yards.

To aim at the green would take a brave soul as there is OOB right and the rocky outcrops on the left

I can see planning issues arising if the wall is protected where M&E have proposed the new green to be

In theory it will massively eclipse the 10th at the Belfry as the best known short par 4 in the UK

Cheers
Ben

[Michael Graham]

As others have already said, I'm surprised by the extent of the proposed changes. Certainly seems a lot more drastic than the changes around the turn Mr Trump was talking about last summer.

I wonder what the R&A's reaction has been. I seem to recall Trump saying he would only embark on changes with their explicit support.

Michael

[Jim Sherma]

I'm in a group starting to plan a 2016 trip with Turnberry on the itinerary. Other than the location it was never a course that really made me yearn to play it. I'm sure it was a fine course but just nothing I read about it or seeing it on television did it for me. Seeing the proposed changes has really increased my anticipation of playing it.

It will be interesting to see how the Oceanside holes play in a big wind. They look great in theory but if they do not play with enough effective width it could get very dicey.

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm in a group starting to plan a 2016 trip with Turnberry on the itinerary. Other than the location it was never a course that really made me yearn to play it. I'm sure it was a fine course but just nothing I read about it or seeing it on television did it for me. Seeing the proposed changes has really increased my anticipation of playing it.

It will be interesting to see how the Oceanside holes play in a big wind. They look great in theory but if they do not play with enough effective width it could get very dicey.

Jim,

if the alterations are not starting till the second half of this year then I doubt very much it will be open for play in 2016.

Jon

[Jim Sherma]

That is not what the person setting this up was told. I'll make sure before I lock into anything. The trip is not until August 2016.

I'm in a group starting to plan a 2016 trip with Turnberry on the itinerary. Other than the location it was never a course that really made me yearn to play it. I'm sure it was a fine course but just nothing I read about it or seeing it on television did it for me. Seeing the proposed changes has really increased my anticipation of playing it.

It will be interesting to see how the Oceanside holes play in a big wind. They look great in theory but if they do not play with enough effective width it could get very dicey.

Jim,

if the alterations are not starting till the second half of this year then I doubt very much it will be open for play in 2016.

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

June 2016 is the scheduled reopening date. They are going to turf a lot of the work areas using grass from the Arran course, which will speed things up.

[Jon Wiggett]

June 2016 is the scheduled reopening date. They are going to turf a lot of the work areas using grass from the Arran course, which will speed things up.

Ah, that makes sense. Just as long as they don't butcher it with ryegrass as the Trump organisation has done else where

Jon

[Dean Stokes]

Adam

Interesting comment. It occurs to me that looking at the proposed changes, and also considering Balmedie International, that the Donald seems to like tees and greens at high points where possible.

Niall

Niall,

obviously Mr. Trump has not played much links golf in Scotland. The top tees at Balmedie are unplayable in anything above a stiff breeze.

I agree with Ben's comments about 9 being a good opportunity to make a better short 4 than 3.

Jon

As a good friend pointed out about Trump Aberdeen, the tees especially are all raised to make the views "spectacular". That is not the way links golf is supposed to be played! It is supposed to be down in the dunes not on top of them-when the wind howls there is no getting the teeball down into the fairway which is among the dunes!!!! I guess once again views and look "trumps" architectural value

[Brian_Ewen]

Proposals for the Ailsa Course at Trump Turnberry :

http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/download.html

[Niall C]

Brian

Thanks for the link. Looking at the flythrough again its evident that not only are there a number of raised greens but they are all fairly well exposed. You wonder what would happen if they got a wind like they got at TOC 5 years ago (or was it the Open before ?). Not unknown to have winds like that but with greens at Championship speeds there could be big problems with balls moving after they have come to rest.

As someone else also pointed out there could well be problems with both sea spray and sand blow. Could compromise conditioning on a daily play basis. I also suspect that some of those new back tees on the ocean holes aren't going to get a lot of play given theres next to no bail out options and that you are going to be playing over a beach. OK for Open Championships maybe but again hugely problematic on a daily basis. That aside, the proposals look fantastic 

Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

How the pitch and putt is looking now.


https://twitter.com/golfarchitects

[Paul Gray]

As others have already said, I'm surprised by the extent of the proposed changes. Certainly seems a lot more drastic than the changes around the turn Mr Trump was talking about last summer.

I wonder what the R&A's reaction has been. I seem to recall Trump saying he would only embark on changes with their explicit support.

Michael

You just can't buy class.

[Adam Lawrence]

Given that Martin Ebert is on the R&A's Championship Committee (or he was; it is possible that his term has expired) then I think it is highly unlikely that any work he is doing is without R&A sanction.

[Brian_Ewen]

The new 14th


https://twitter.com/TrumpTurnberry/status/654672177677996032/photo/1