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Anthony Fowler

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Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« on: July 02, 2014, 11:55:23 AM »
As a lifelong golfer and lover of golf architecture, I was fortunate to make my first pilgrimage to The Old Course last week. I’d like to share some of my experiences and reactions. So much has been written about this course by so many great students of the game that it would be arrogant for me to expect that my opinion holds any significant weight. Nonetheless, I hope that my views and experiences will spark discussion. I have thought long and hard about this post, because I know that these views are unpopular. I look forward to your vehement disagreements and criticisms!

Contentious Opinion #1: The Old Course is Downright Easy
I am a scratch golfer, I played from the “back” tees at 6721 yards (after getting special permission), and there was at least a one- or two-club wind on every hole. On every hole except 17, I would have to really screw up to make worse than a par. The course plays very short, the fairways are extremely wide, and the greens are huge. While the greens do have some exciting undulations around the perimeters, the pinnable areas of the greens are usually relatively flat. I only had 2 putts all day with any significant break or slope (on 11 and 18). Armed with a yardage book and some prior knowledge of the course (caddies are not necessary despite many claims otherwise), I found it relatively easy to avoid fairway bunkers entirely and to largely avoid long grass. This means that on the modal hole, I’m hitting a tee shot (usually not a driver) to a wide fairway and then hitting a short iron to a huge, flat green. Even if I hit a terrible approach shot, I’ll most likely have a flat, 40 foot putt for birdie. Obviously, there are a few terrible things to avoid, but if you know where they are, it’s very easy to do so.

Contentious Opinion #2: Many Holes are Boring and Devoid of Strategy
Because of the factors mentioned above, many holes at The Old Course are not particularly interesting, memorable, or exciting. Certainly, there is some thinking required on every hole. You have to look at the yardage book, the lay of the land, the wind, etc. and decide upon the right line and club off the tee. If you do that first part well, much of the excitement of the hole is over. Like I said above, I found it relatively easy to avoid the trouble off the tee with the right combination of club and line and I didn’t have to sacrifice much, because, in most cases, I still had a short shot into an accessible green. People often talk about The Old Course as a great strategic course, and I was really looking forward to this. In Ran’s course profile, he points out that you can bail out to the left on most holes, but he argues that this will leave you with a worse view or angle into the green. However, I found relatively little reward associated with challenging the trouble and relatively little penalty for bailing out. On many holes, you could hit to the middle of the shared fairway and still have a perfectly good view of the green and angle of attack. In fact, angles were almost irrelevant on most holes, because of the lack of slope around the hole and because the greenside bunkers were effectively not in play (again, 17 is the exception where the bunker is very much in play and the angle of attack is important). For the two holes where the green is significantly pitched (11 and 18), the pitch of the green, while fun and interesting, does not necessarily influence the strategy of the hole. On 18, for example, the green encourages you to bail out to the left off the tee which was already the safe play anyway. I should note that I played 18 in to a very stiff wind, but I could imagine that with a different wind, the hole might become more exciting and strategic as driving on the green or into the valley of sin becomes a more viable option. Again, to reiterate, there are just too many holes where you hit a safe club to the safe part of the fairway and then hit a short club onto a large, flat putting surface. Holes like that can have little excitement or strategy.

Contentious Opinion #3: The Overall Experience is Terrible
Setting aside the golf course for one moment, I found the overall experience at The Old Course to be one of the worst I’ve ever had at any public, private, or resort course. I was chastised by several people for not taking a caddie and for playing from the “back” tees. I had no less than 5 near-death experiences related to golf balls from other groups. My playing partners and their caddies were extremely rude to me and especially to my wife (who plays quickly and did not once slow down the group). I suspect that some of this was attributable to the fact that we played from different tees and didn’t take caddies, but most of it appeared to be blatant sexism directed toward my wife. The caddies made a point to tell us that they would not help us in any way (e.g., lines off the tee, looking for balls), they didn’t, and we didn’t need it. The caddies continually tried to force me to hit my tee shot when I could clearly see that the group in front was still in range and hitting their approach shots. Pedestrians and tourists swarmed the 17th and 18th fairways and failed to make way for golfers. And, of course, we waited on every tee and in fairway, and the round took over 5 hours. It was definitely worth the hassle to play the course, and I’ve tried to separate these issues from my evaluation of the architecture above, but I am less eager to return as a result of these experiences.

Final Note
Of course, I have been harsh, and I have focused on my negative reactions in order to spark discussion. Many others have already pointed out the virtues of The Old Course. For one, the place is breathtaking and unlike anything I’ve ever seen before. There are some truly world class holes. Personally, I loved 7, 11, and 17. Holes 3, 12, and 13 are also very neat. More than other courses, it probably changes dramatically from day to day as the winds change and as the pins get moved as much as 50 or 60 yards. However, I don’t expect that seeing a variety of winds and hole locations would lead me to significantly change my views above. You shouldn’t have to play a course a hundred times to really appreciate it if it’s truly one of the best in the world. For my taste, The Old Course is an excellent course with a ton of history, but it’s not one of the greatest in the world. It’s in my personal top 20 but not my personal top 10. My best guess is that its reputation is largely inflated by its history and by the fact that it’s very playable for the average golfer (probably much more so than any other Open Championship course). Thanks for entertaining such a long post. I look forward to your reactions!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:09:12 PM by Anthony Fowler »

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 12:04:34 PM »
Congratulations, you're in great company. Bob Jones felt the same way after his first round. Also, Alister Mackenzie would note your views would have found plenty of company for more than the past 100 years.

Also, thanks for the data point indirectly supporting my resolution regarding memorability.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 12:07:27 PM »
Anthony - thanks for throwing this out there. 

1.  The Course is easy

There was a thread a while ago where we discussed the easiest great course and the Old Course was probably got the most support.  What did you shoot? 

2.  Many holes are boring and devoid of strategy

I have heard others state that the Old Course uses pretty begnign hole locations for every day play which would blunt much of the interest associated with the left/right choice that the holes present. 

3.  Experience is terrible

It sounds as if you had bad luck with playing partners and pace of play.  I have played once pretty early in the day and once late and the late round was closer to the experience you describe.  The early round was quick. 

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 12:24:31 PM »
Anthony,

Given your statements about the expectations of shooting par playing off scratch, why don't we see average scores lower for the +6 boys playing it at 7300 (+/-) yards?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2014, 12:26:42 PM »
One of the only advantages I can think of of being an older short knocker is that the Old Course is still fascinating and challenging.  

By the way, knock your approach into either Strath or Short Hole bunker and get back to me about how easy the course is!

Where did you drive on 16?   One of the heinous things they've done is grow the rough left of the Principal's Nose and effectively neuter any strategy.  Nicklaus said playing right of the PN is "strictly for amateurs."   Now there's no choice, unless they've cut it down.  

I always take a caddy, and find it just smooths out the experience.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2014, 12:28:15 PM »
Anthony:

I was okay with your post until you said that in spite of all your contentious positions, you still have the course in your personal top 20.  That didn't make much sense to me, but it does suggest that after a couple of more visits, you will place it much higher, as most intelligent people tend to do.

Also, you should keep in mind that the hole locations for big events are nowhere near the ones you saw on a casual round in June.  The course is probably five shots harder with the hole locations used for the Autumn Medal.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2014, 12:41:28 PM »
One of the only advantages I can think of of being an older short knocker is that the Old Course is still fascinating and challenging.  

By the way, knock your approach into either Strath or Short Hole bunker and get back to me about how easy the course is!

Where did you drive on 16?   One of the heinous things they've done is grow the rough left of the Principal's Nose and effectively neuter any strategy.  Nicklaus said playing right of the PN is "strictly for amateurs."   Now there's no choice, unless they've cut it down.  

I always take a caddy, and find it just smooths out the experience.  

I played Friday at TOC.
They were out of caddies (fortunately)I joined two Italians who took many photos
We had a fantastic day
Not sure having direction would've helped at all as I was in no bunkers and found it relative easy to navigate, though to be fair Ive seen it on tv for years and played it on a simulator ;D
On several holes bored rangers tried to help my two amateurs and gave them terrible angles into the green.
Saw some bad caddie behavior-screaming at other golfers on crossing holes
It f I'd seem as if there was more rough than I expected dictating strategymore than I thought it would
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 01:32:49 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2014, 01:45:35 PM »
TOC is definitely a course that requires multiple plays to appreciate it's brilliance. I too, would like to know what you shot Anthony

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2014, 01:53:30 PM »
If you whiff your your tee shot off 17 (the new tee)
are you out of bounds?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2014, 01:55:08 PM »
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 02:00:44 PM »
Anthony

Re the experience, who chastised you for not taking a caddy ? I'm very surprised at that as taking a caddy is not in any way expected at any course in Scotland that I can think off other than Renaissance which is certainly not your average Scottish experience. Did you report the hassle/abuse you took from the caddies to anyone at the St Andrews Links ?

As several people have noted, for ordinary play the hole locations are usually pretty accessible but I generally agree with your comment about the greens being generally relatively flat.

Niall

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 02:08:30 PM »
TOC is definitely a course that requires multiple plays to appreciate it's brilliance. I too, would like to know what you shot Anthony

I disagree
it is brilliant.immediately
no doubt it gets better over time
certainly better (setupwise)than the two torture chamber courses that i faced in competition where every marginal shot was potentially lost , in heathetr, or in 2 foot hay
Where's the fun in that and why do we tolerate such setups for everyday play?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 02:18:29 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 02:12:58 PM »
Anthony,

Given your statements about the expectations of shooting par playing off scratch, why don't we see average scores lower for the +6 boys playing it at 7300 (+/-) yards?

Unless the weather is real bad, the pro's tend to take TOC apart.  

Anthony: great post.  I love reading well-reasoned POVs that run counter to the conventional wisdom.  btw, back in the 1920's or so, Tillie thought TOC was too easy as a championship course.  He thought that was true of British courses in general, and was a big reason US golfers were beating the Brits so often back then.  

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 02:19:34 PM »
Hardly qualified to comment as a one-timer.  What struck me was the one to two club breeze:  nae wind, nae golf.  Played the New and Old on back to back days.  The wind was in the 20-30+ mph range and switched directions 180 degrees from one day to the next.   Played the New on Sunday and walked the Old afterwards with the wind from the SE, which meant for my lowly game, had I played the Old that day, I would have had to play 14 down the 5th fairway.  In other words, different strategies than for the wind we had (NW).  We just played the tourist tees and, other than one hole with bad luck in one bunker, would have scored close to my HC.  My impression is that we got lucky with the breeze.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2014, 02:32:31 PM »
If you whiff your your tee shot off 17 (the new tee)
are you out of bounds?

Or off the Open tees on the 2nd?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2014, 02:56:22 PM »
I can now thank the Lord that I am a 7 handicap. Played it six times in six different weather patterns. Found bunkers and the whins galore, plus I had a blast. Must be pretty damn boring being a scratch and always looking at the middle of fairways and greens.

You know , come to think about it, that could be said for alot of great courses. Had a good round at Merion and hit almost every fair way and most greens. Scored below my cap and smiled all the way around the course. The Muc was correct, must be a moron.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2014, 03:32:42 PM »
Wow, I disagree. I loved the course the very first time.

Who says that a course has to be difficult to be great. Pebble is not difficult and it is my favorite course. I don't think I've ever been more than 1 over thru 7 holes there.

But, I hate courses that just just beat you to death, so maybe its and ego problem with me. I played the Old Course twice, 76 the first day and 82 the next day. Loved the greens, traps ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2014, 03:59:07 PM »
Anthony,

Thank you

You comments regarding a place I so dearly love is so refreshing. TOC is not for everyone, if it was we would have two thousand replicas around the world,  It deserves to be the only one. The design philosophies that are so enduring can only be found in one place,St Andrews.

Mackenzie, Macdonald and  Tillinghast among others all got something a little different out of their experience,
Thankfully.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2014, 04:05:42 PM »
Anthony,

Thank you

You comments regarding a place I so dearly love is so refreshing. TOC is not for everyone, if it was we would have two thousand replicas around the world,  It deserves to be the only one. The design philosophies that are so enduring can only be found in one place,St Andrews.

Mackenzie, Macdonald and  Tillinghast among others all got something a little different out of their experience,
Thankfully.


JC and Anthony.
Fair points

What I don't understand is why more courses aren't just like TOC?
Fun  playable  fun---yet somehow able to host the world's biggest championship
Most courses built in the last 40 years don't qualify on either count
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2014, 04:07:22 PM »
Anyone herein played TOC sometime in the last few years not with modern equipment, but with hickories? If you've also played it with modern equipment I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
atb

Brent Hutto

Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2014, 04:08:58 PM »
Maybe I'm taking your comment too literally, Jeff, but when you take away the links turf and wind (only available to a fraction of golf courses in the world) and you take away the shared fairways for "safety" reasons and you eliminate the deepest and/or most penal of the bunkers because the punters would whine about them anywhere except on a links course...

What would you have left? Minimal use of water hazards and ginormous, flattish greens?

I would think most of what's needed to create a course "like the Old Course" is not available to the typical architect or developer...

Tim Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2014, 04:10:41 PM »
Anthony
I would agree about nearly getting dinged with errant golf balls, I had one zing past me on 13, after noticing the foursome screaming all bloody hell at me from the 6th tee. Missed me by about 2 feet. I hear FORE all day long, it was comical after a while. Heard an operatic version that had us all laughing.

Played it on a no wind day and it was easier than I had expected, from our tees, drove some greens but that wouldn't have happened if there was the typical Scotland breeze on. All in all, I could easily see a scratch ripping up the course but it was still a day not to forget.

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2014, 04:11:28 PM »
Anthony,

I always struggle with the "tee" debate, but ultimately I never have a better time playing from different tees than my playing partners, especially if the course is playing slow (I may subtly nudge my partners back, or meet in the middle).  I just find it awkward and hurts the experience.  That said, I certainly understand not wanting your only shot at a great course to be at 6,300 yards putting 5 irons in your hands on multiple tees.  

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2014, 04:13:45 PM »
I need to vouch for Anthony's skill.  He's a expert golfer and an true lover of GCA. 

The part that really got my dander up was the way Anthony's wife was treated.  She's an amazingly nice person and I can't imagine how or why anybody would treat her poorly.   (PS - I knew I'd like her when she showed up at French Creek wearing a Cabot Links shirt!)

Brent Hutto

Re: Reflections after a Round at The Old Course
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2014, 04:18:10 PM »
I don't know how long Anthony hits his irons but just based on watching Open Championships over recent years it seems a lot of the "strategy" concerns disappear for long hitters.

But unlike many USA courses of my acquaintance, at courses like the Old Course or Hoylake what matters isn't ones driver distance. And it matters hardly at all what tees one chooses. What does matter is how capable the player is of hitting 220 yard irons shots accurately. That seems to be the modern "strategy" at many Opens, hit less than driver (even 5-iron if necessary) to absolutely, positively play short of the most penal trouble and then bomb 4-irons and 3-irons over all that trouble on the approach shot.

That seems to me a fundamental limitation of the build-longer-tees approach to "modernizing" a links course. What would really be needed is to move any hazards that are 150-220 yards out from the green and place them 180-250 yards out instead. But that's just a TV viewer's perspective talking...

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