Donald Ross and the par 3 17th

[Ben Hollerbach]

I've noticed that Ross designed an exceptional number of courses where the 17th hole is a par 3. These include, but are not limited to:

Pinehurst no. 2
Seminole
Aronimink
Scioto
Oakland Hills
Interlachen
White Bear Yacht Club
Pine Needles (original)

It seems to frequent to be a coincidence, but its rather interesting the mix of short, highly bunkered, and long par 3's he used. Did Ross ever write about the use of a par 3 for the penultimate hole?

[Terry Lavin]

Beverly belongs on the list.

[David Amarnek]

and Gulph Mills

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Also Oyster Harbors! We may be onto something.

But wait! Not at Essex County, Plainfield, Lulu, Siwanoy, Southern Pines, Wannamoisett, Salem, Inverness, Linville, Mountain Ridge, etc, etc... No trend here.

However, I have not read Ross writings and do not consider myself in any way an expert on Ross so this is purely a peanut gallery post.

Thanks, Ben, for making me at least think about this!

[Ben Hollerbach]

I've tracked down about 45 Ross courses that were designed with a par 3 17th

Algonquin
Aronimink
Asheville
Asheville Municipal (Original)
Athens
Bellevue (Original)
Benevnue
Beverly
Bloomfield Hills
Brunswick
Catawba
Charlotte
Dearborn
Detroit (south)
Du Pont
Elmhurst
Hartford
Hyannisport
Interlachen
James Barber
Mimosa Hills
Mountain Brook
Northland
Northmoor
Oak Hill (Mass)
Oak Hill (west)
Oakland Hills
Oakley (Original)
Oconomowoc
Old Elm
Oyster Harbor
Palm Beach
Pine Needles (Original)
Pinehurst (no. 2)
Raleigh
Riverton (Original)
Roosevelt Memorial (Original)
Scioto
Seminole
Vesper
Weston
Whippoorwill
White Bear Yacht Club
York (NY)
York (Maine)

Some of these no longer exist and some have been re-routed, but these are the ones i've found with Ross plans and a par 3 17th.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think he liked a 4, 3, and 5 on the last 3 holes.  Seldom did he use a par 3 18, soooo.......it was 16 or 17 that had to be one.

Not bad really. I think most architects would have par 3 at 17 often.  Or at least 16-17.  15 seems a bit early for the last par 3, and 14 is for sure, at least IMHO.  I looked it up once and we had a list of courses with 18 as a par 3.  There were more than you might think, and 6 of the top 100 on one list, but still a par 3 18th is pretty rare.

[Ronald Montesano]

...

[Mark Saltzman]

Isn't Ross credited with something like 400 courses? So if we assume 1 and 18 are rarely par-3s, that means there is a 4/16 chance that 17 is a par-3.  So, about 100 courses should have the 17th as par-3s.  If we can get well beyond that, then I guess we're on to something.

[Ronald Montesano]

#18 at Glens Falls is a par three. Isn't that the rarity we should be discussing?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Ben,

FYI...

Another Ross course with a par three 17th is Bald Peak Colony Club in New Hampshire.

[Nigel Islam]

Pete Dye likes a 3,4,&5 to close often with 17 as a 3.

[Philip Caccamise]

#18 at Glens Falls is a par three. Isn't that the rarity we should be discussing?

So is Brook Lea. (Both 9's, actually.)

[Matthew Rose]

Pete Dye has a par-3 17th hole on almost every notable design of his career, with only a few rare exceptions (the Honors Course and the Golf Club are the only two I can think of offhand).

I believe this is an homage to Ross, based on a quote attributed to him - Asked to describe his ideal 18 holes, his last three holes went 5-3-4 (like many on his resume) and he specifically referred to "the strong 5-3-4 finish emulates Donald Ross' Pinehurst conclusion".

[Mike_Clayton]

Alfonso Ernhardt will know better but i think Javier Arana made a par 3 17th at every course he did.
Club de Campo, Puerto de Hierro and El Saler all have short 17th holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

I don't think that Ross had a predisposition to make his 17th hole a par 3......... or a par 4............. or a par 5.

I think he took what the terrain and general routing best provided him on a site specific basis.

Given the volume of his production, I'm sure that there's an abundance of par 3's. par 4's and par 5's that are his 17th holes.

[Tom_Doak]

In general, I would say I'm not a big fan of having a par-3 for my 17th holes [or 16th, for that matter]. 

Yet it is inevitable they come up fairly often.  I've got fourteen courses [out of 34] with a par-3 17th, and eleven with a par-3 16th. 

I've done only one course with a par-3 18th, and I inherited that one [Medinah #1].  The only other time I've suggested a par-3 18th, at Stone Eagle, the owner balked, so it's the 19th instead.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Isn't Ross credited with something like 400 courses? So if we assume 1 and 18 are rarely par-3s, that means there is a 4/16 chance that 17 is a par-3.  So, about 100 courses should have the 17th as par-3s.  If we can get well beyond that, then I guess we're on to something.

Mark,

Why are you using math? Do you want people to ignore your point?

If you want to get your point across, ditch the math and replacewith with name-dropping eg "iif anyone here knows the book" Fooled by Randomness" the real answer is probably that some 17th holes - and a fair number at that - just have to be par 3s.

Or you can just hit people with an argument from authority logical fallacy such as, Ross was too good a designer to just plug in a par 3 on as many 17s as possible regardless of the site, circumstances etc.

Got it? Now ixnay on the mathay.

Helpfully,

[Alfonso Erhardt]

As Mike said, Javier Arana has a par 3 as the 17th hole in all of his designs. He was an excellent match play golfer and his reasoning was that in a close match, a good par 3 at the end of the round was usually more decisive than a par 4 or par 5

[Dave McCollum]

I think the analysis  is fairly simple.  You site the clubhouse and finishing hole, the ultimate hole for all the marbles, a strong, manly, worthy, end to the match.  You fit the rest of the holes to fit the site.  The 17th becomes the connector hole to get to the finish.  Of all of the options, a short hole is the most viable.  Anything from 120 yards to 250 yards works.  Just get to the strong finisher.  It is no coincidence that it is often a par 3, a connector.  The archie knows where the journey ends, wants a noble finish, and often has to concoct a way there.

[Paul Gray]

Isn't Ross credited with something like 400 courses? So if we assume 1 and 18 are rarely par-3s, that means there is a 4/16 chance that 17 is a par-3.  So, about 100 courses should have the 17th as par-3s.  If we can get well beyond that, then I guess we're on to something.

Mark,

Why are you using math? Do you want people to ignore your point?

If you want to get your point across, ditch the math and replacewith with name-dropping eg "iif anyone here knows the book" Fooled by Randomness" the real answer is probably that some 17th holes - and a fair number at that - just have to be par 3s.

Or you can just hit people with an argument from authority logical fallacy such as, Ross was too good a designer to just plug in a par 3 on as many 17s as possible regardless of the site, circumstances etc.

Got it? Now ixnay on the mathay.

Helpfully,

Too sensible. Far too sensible.

[Ronald Montesano]

Isn't Ross credited with something like 400 courses? So if we assume 1 and 18 are rarely par-3s, that means there is a 4/16 chance that 17 is a par-3.  So, about 100 courses should have the 17th as par-3s.  If we can get well beyond that, then I guess we're on to something.

Mark,

Why are you using math? Do you want people to ignore your point?

If you want to get your point across, ditch the math and replacewith with name-dropping eg "iif anyone here knows the book" Fooled by Randomness" the real answer is probably that some 17th holes - and a fair number at that - just have to be par 3s.

Or you can just hit people with an argument from authority logical fallacy such as, Ross was too good a designer to just plug in a par 3 on as many 17s as possible regardless of the site, circumstances etc.

Got it? Now ixnay on the mathay.

Helpfully,

I got his point right away. What I don't understand is the need to get a point across on how to get a point across, when the initial point came across just fine.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not "mathay,", it's "athmay" 

[Jim Nugent]

Isn't Ross credited with something like 400 courses? So if we assume 1 and 18 are rarely par-3s, that means there is a 4/16 chance that 17 is a par-3.  So, about 100 courses should have the 17th as par-3s.  If we can get well beyond that, then I guess we're on to something.

I think most courses have a par 3 among the last four holes, and very rarely is it #18.  So the odds for #17 being a par 3, if it's all random, might be closer to one in three.  i.e. closer to 130 than 100.  So far, I doubt we have any hard numbers to work with though.

Besides all Ross courses, interested to see how the numbers stack up in his top-rated courses.  Say, all Ross courses ranked 200 or better in the various lists. 

[Chris Hans]

VESPER CC.