[Lou_Duran]

Bill McBride,

How you view MY comments, i.e. right-wing, lectures, pointing out the errors of your ways, etc.  I assume that you know precisely how you view yours.

Don Hyslop,

Way different times, different circumstances.  We were once a large country sparsely populated.  We also had a society that was self-reliant and loathe to ask not to say anything about demanding from others.

Having said all this, I can understand the argument for relatively open borders and I am certainly sympathetic for doing what we can constructively to help others become productive, regardless of their national origin.  For the most part, I think this country takes no back seat to any other in these regards.

Jim Kennedy,

"The arguments you and Lou are using against bringing pay up to the same standards we enjoyed in the U.S. in the not too distant past are stale and old hat, but they are easy to use.  No offense."

No offense taken, but you're mistaken.  The position of taking someone else's money on the pretext that it is needed to cure societal problems is by far an easier one.  That most income statistics show that there's been real income growth at ALL levels doesn't support the often repeated argument that the working poor are losing ground.  Couple that with a lowered if not outright eliminated federal income tax burden and increases in transfer payments, and there are few countries where the poor live better.  We don't have some 20 million illegals here, most of them poor, because the U.S. is a hellhole. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lou,

A 2005 government report stated that wages and salaries now make up the lowest share of the nation’s gross domestic product since the government began recording the data in 1947, while corporate profits have climbed to their highest share since the 1960’s. In 1970 wages and salaries represented 53.6% of the gross domestic product. In 2001 that figure fell to 50% and by 2006 it dropped to 45%. Throughout most of the last century wages and productivity rose together, but in recent years productivity has increased but wages have not. The productivity of workers rose about 16.6% from 2000 through 2005 but compensation only rose by 7.2%. Even workers who make about $80,000(90th percentile) a year have seen inflation outpace their pay increases over the last three years (again, these are Labor Department statistics).
Ben Bernanke wasn't speaking to wages when he said the following, but he did express the opinion that 'the unequal distribution of the economy’s spoils could derail the trade liberalization of recent decades'. He went on to say that because recent economic changes “...threaten the livelihoods of some workers and the profits of some firms",   policy makers must try “to ensure that the benefits of global economic integration are sufficiently widely shared.”

I don't subscribe to the notion of ...'taking someone else's money on the pretext that it is needed to cure societal problems". I do subscribe to the notion of giving them a fair share of it for the labors they perform.
And no, we don't have 20 million 'illegals' here because the U.S. is a hellhole. They are here because it is convenient to get here and they can make more than a couple of dollars a day.
No, the U.S. isn't a hellhole, heck, the best part of living in America is that you can believe what you want, even when faced with facts you don't like.


edit: even the economists at Goldman Sachs said that: ...."The most important contributor to higher profit margins over the past five years has been a decline in labor’s share of national income".

[Kalen Braley]

I still haven't seen any rebutall to the fact that they get food stamps, welfare, access to public schools, access to ER's, etc all without paying once cent in federal income taxes. When you factor these things in, they make far higher than the "low" wage that everyone likes to throw out there, just not at the expense of the employer.

And just for the record, I'm completely 100% in favor of people coming to America legally.  The real problem is they need to go after businesses who hire them because if they weren't being hired, most of them wouldn't come.  So in the meantime I get to subsidize them for all of the above listed benefits, yet as an American citizen have to pay myself, while they don't.  I will never, ever, ever be fine with this.

[Pete_Pittock]

Kalen,
 What about FICA taxes, sales tax, excise taxes and property taxes (assuming the landlord passes on them to tenants)?
 I'd like a coherent national policy rather than feigned blindness. Just let everybody know what the rules are and enforce them evenly.
 Like most clubs, mine probably employs guest workers. I've never asked, because I don't know what will be the result of asking.
 

[Dan Herrmann]

Kalen - check the Constitution.  Back in 1787, they wrote about people, not citizens, meaning the visitor from Mexico has almost all the rights (other than voting and jury duty, for example) as any long-term citizen.

Golf courses have been hiring people legally.  They'd be really stupid to hire illegals. 

Read up on the H2B program for details.

[Don_Mahaffey]

After working close to the Mex-US border for most of my life I've come to realize a few things.

Most of the folks I've met who come here illegally just want to eat. The idea that they come and work for a year or two and go home and live like a king is a joke.

I've spent a lot of time with them...yes, I've fed them and I've given them water and on rare occasion even shelter. I have a hard time with someone dying of thirst on US soil just because they were born on the wrong side of some line.

US corporations have been moving businesses to Mex for years. Chances are the golf irrigation heads that water your course were built in Mex by someone working for about $1 an hour. Those jobs used to be here, but they just reversed the trend, can't hire illegals without paying a living wage? Just take your business to the cheap labor. We all bitch about illegal aliens but we sure like a cheap car wash, cheap golf, and a clean restaurant.

The ideal they don't pay taxes is crazy. What most of you don't realize is they are in the mainstream of US life. They work in your hospitals, in your schools, for your cities and a lot of other places. Yes, some do work for cash, but the vast majority get false papers and pay into the system with no hope of ever receiving any SS or unemployment. They help with the tax burden not hurt.

Could it be stopped? In a minute if congress required every employer to check SS#. Why don't they? Because it's all talk, we need the labor, and they know it.

And finally, the "I have no problem if they come here legally" argument really pisses me off as the people who spread it are completely ignorant of the problem. There is no way to get here legally. Don't you get it? That's why we have the problem. I know people who have kids in Iraq serving our country, who have been here for over a decade and who are very solid people, and they can't get legal. There is no avenue.

A common sense approach to immigration would do wonders for our country. Unfortunately, most of what we here is total BS. Everyone talks tough, but no one does anything...it's a mess.

[Nick Cauley]

Mr. Mahaffey took the words right out of my mouth..

Well said

[Sean_A]

Does anyone get the impression that housing and basic cost of living items are too expensive in the summer only resorts which the article sites as having a shortage of labour?  You obviously have the fairly wealthy folks in the area whose kids don't or won't work these seasonal jobs.  It seems to me that the wages can't be high enough to attract "outside" workers for a season.  One of the kids mentioned in the article stated 2/3s of his pay went toward accomodation costs.  This doesn't sound like a great job to save cash for college or more importantly to support migrant labour.  Its sounds more like goof off time for kids who want to be in a cool area for the summer rather than going home to mom and dad. 

These are different times then when I did this sort of work in the summer - unions have been crushed.  I was lucky to land delivery jobs for beer distributors which paid very highly compared to ordinary summer jobs for high school/uni kids.  Jeepers, I was taking home $600 a week back in the late 70s and early 80s when most kids were happy to clear $1000 for the summer.  Most college grads didn't get paid that when they graduated.  I bet most don't now.  If you think about it, if a kid gets $10 an hour at 40 hours a week over 4 months, what is his take home pay $6000?  Knock off all the expenses and what he saves hardly makes a dent in the price of tuition and this is at a state uni which is heavily subsidized by all the Joe Bloggs in the country.   

Times have certainly changed with wages and housing getting so far out of sinc.  Its gonna mean that folks are gonna have to find other ways to attract labour if they don't want to pay more.  For years the argument has always been to keep wages in check because it controls inflation, but we have let the price of housing sky rocket with cheap credit.  It has occurred to me that many a folk in the UK are on these short term mortgages which will be coming up for renewal in the coming few years.  With house prices dropping a bit and folks not tending to take personal savings to seriously I can see many banks in the current climate demanding a lender have 5-7% equity before an offer is even made.  Lord knows how many folks have virtually no equity in their homes because of stupidity on their part and the greed of mortgage lenders.  Does this US have this same sort of thing happening with folks borrowing nearly 100% mortgage on 2-3 year terms hoping (like traditionally) that they will continue to find acceptable deals in the future? 

When I first came to the UK looking to buy a house 10 years ago I was astonished to find that getting a long term fixed mortgage was practically unheard of.  People just stared at me and asked why I would want such a product?  In fact, they were still pushing those dreadful endowment mortgages.  I couldn't believe regular Joes ever took these up.  In the end I think I settled for a 5 year deal (quite long at the time) in which I could pay off without penalty.  I have never trusted these short term deals because I could never be sure what would happen with the market. 

I don't pretend to have the answers, but the combination of crazy house prices, cheap and now more expensive credit and personal debt (its scary to think how much people owe)is a cocktail which won't taste very well. 

Ciao
Ciao

[Ryan DeMay]

Don,

Well said indeed.  The majority of the dialogue on this issue comes from folks who are terribly misinformed.  Those of us on the front lines of the immigration understand the truths that are involved from the perspective of us as employers and our immigrant employees.  If Congress was serious about making real reforms with respect to immigration, the H2B legislation that was allowed to die would have been a great start.

[Gary Sato]

Seems like laws are becoming more relaxed in a few states.

Beginning January 1st in California, the DMV is packed since undocumented workers may now receive drivers licenses.

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