[Jim Hoak]

And I totally agree with Pat.  Obviously, it isn't the Stimpmeter itself that is the culprit.  It's the idiots who use it as a competitive instrument.
I like Pat's solution of finding the biggest sloped green on the course, determining how fast it can realistically be, and conforming the other greens to it.  But, I ask the question (without really having a firm opinion), Is it absolutely necessary that all greens on a course be the same speed?  Is that a good--and realistic--goal?

[Patrick_Mucci]

And I totally agree with Pat.  Obviously, it isn't the Stimpmeter itself that is the culprit.  It's the idiots who use it as a competitive instrument.
I like Pat's solution of finding the biggest sloped green on the course, determining how fast it can realistically be, and conforming the other greens to it.  But, I ask the question (without really having a firm opinion), Is it absolutely necessary that all greens on a course be the same speed?  Is that a good--and realistic--goal?

Jim,

I think it's a prudent practice and would offer two (2) real life examples for consideration.

There's a course not far from my home that used to maintain their 9th green at a much slower pace than all of their other greens.
It was a two tiered green with a pronounced differential.

Prior to play, many to most golfers take some time at the range and practice putting green.
In essence, the practice putting green is the first green the golfer encounters.
It is on the practice putting green that the golfer begins to gauge the speed of the greens.
Armed with that information, he tees off on the first hole and finds the next eight ( greens to be pretty much consistent with the practice putting green.
Now, he comes to the 9th green.
What can possibly prepare him to cope with the reduced speeds he'll encounter on that green ?
Now, it's pot luck.

Another course, not far away did the same thing with their 7th and 18th green.
All the other greens were kept pretty fast, but, on # 7 and # 18 the golfer was at a total loss as to what speed he would encounter.

So, I think that striving for consistency is a positive goal to start out with.

We all know that some greens remain damp longer than others, some are elevated and dry out faster, get more wind, less shadows, so over the course of the day, their speeds my vary.   But, at the begining of the day, striving for a relative consistency by preparing the field of play in a relatively uniform manner seems to make the most sense.

If one green putts at 11 and the next one putts at 8 and the next one at 10, it would be difficult to develop a consistent stroke because the golfer couldn't adjust to those variances in that short a time.

He wouldn't discover the variance until after executing his stroke, and by then, it's too late.

Hence, I'm an advocate for striving for consistency at the start of the day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

DCronan,

In addition, you get to get a sense of the consistency of the bunker as you enter it and take your stance.
And, you can often gain additional information by just visually examining the condition of the bunker/sand.

You can't do that on a putting surface.

You can't look at it and say, this is an 11 versus a 9.

We're not that good

Jim,

The same people who delight in achieving very high, very unrealistic speeds are the same ones who seem to delight in making the course diabolically difficult.

At one club I'm familiar with a group of young Turks wanted to stiffen the defenses on the course.
Grow the rough, narrow the fairways, speed up the greens.
So, the President sent me their petition and asked me to comment.

My response was simple.

Who are they toughening the course up for ?

I stated that not one of them was able to break 80 in qualifying for the club championship, hence the course's current defenses seemed more than adequate to challenge the best golfers in the club, so why toughen it up, why punish those of less ability.

The result was that the status quo was maintained.

But, their thinking was dangerous.
They just wanted to build the course's reputation by making it difficult to impossible, and in doing so, ruining the golfing experience for the members and their guests.

The same attitude prevails when it comes to green speeds.

To a degree, televised weekly PGA Tour events and Majors are the culprit.
But, those guys are the best golfers in the world.
That's all they do, play golf for a living.

I don't want my cardiologist or dentist upset when he sees me on Monday morning.

[Carl Johnson]

Reading through the responses so far, it seems to me that once I cut through it all I've rarely seen such agreement here and such intelligent responses, to the point.  But a question for the supers, or others who know the process well (I am in neither category) - how does the Stimpmeter help the super with consistency, assuming we're talking about consistency of all greens for the day.  Wouldn't the super know enough about his greens and the season and weather to set the proper cutting height for the day, and then cut all greens the same, with the same result?  Or is the first cut just a trial run, after which the super Stimps and then goes back out and makes adjustments to certain greens?  Stated otherwise, what's the exact process the super goes though in using the Stimpmeter for consistency purposes?  (Or, if it's for maintaining consistency from day to day, exactly how does that process work using the Stimpmeter?)

[Lou_Duran]

The obsession with fast greens is the bane of good golf courses.  They invite diseases on the greens, overuse water, slow down play, etc.  And the Stimpmeter helped cause this obsession.  So, yes, it is a bad invention.

Totally agree with Jim.

It is the shooter not the gun.  My life is greatly enhanced by access to timely, accurate information.  To the extent that courses do a good job with the Stimp, I like to know.  What people do with good information is another matter.  I do find that the 10' I see posted at many places is often wrong.  In terms of operations, I wish superintendents would mow the practice green to a speed representative of the rest of the course. Often, I find the practice green much faster (maybe due to compaction from greater use?) and it takes me a few holes to realize that it ain't me being timid.  In the technology era we're enjoying, maybe the progressive superintendent should install a digital display on each green depicting real time speeds.    Just like I would probably not block for Dick Cheney as he drives the pheasants down the cornfield, I pay no attention to the Stimp reading at my home course which seems to be stuck between 10' and 10'2" despite highly varied conditions. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Carl,

The Superintendent is an employee of the club, and as such he doesn't have absolute control over the golf course.

When he gets a directive to speed up the greens, refusing to do so doesn't enhance his job security

Years ago, a superintendent from an iconic club called me to tell me that his green chairman had insisted that he speed up the greens.
He had explained to the Green Chairman that it wasn't advisable to do so, but the Green chairman insisted that they be sped up.

I knew the Green a chairman and did not hold him in high regard with respect to almost anything concerning golf.
He wasn't always right but he was never in doubt.

I advised the Supt to go to the President and inform him of the directive and how that directive was counter to the Supt's professional opinion and experience, and how it could lead to significant harm to the greens.

The Supt balked and indicated that he was reluctant to go over his boss's head.

I told him that in my limited experience with clubs, I've seen them fire Managers, Head Pros, Chefs and Superintendents, but that I've never seen them fire a member or Committee Chair, and that he should go to the President, tell him why the greens shouldn't be sped up and then ask the President to protect him from any backlash from the Green Chairman.  I told him that if he wanted to take it a step further, suggest to the President that perhaps a new Green Chairman might better serve the club.

Result:

He didn't go to the President
He sped up he greens
They ended up losing some greens
He ended up losing his job.

[Thomas Dai]

I'm familiar with the Stimp' and how it's used and the averages calculated etc.

What I'm not familiar with, and perhaps those in the business who do use the Stimpmeter regularly, could help me here, is how many greens should you use it on, whether it should it be used every day, and at what time of day.

Please forgive me enquiring with such obvious questions but I'm just trying to establish a picture of what occurs at a course where the Stimp' is used. For example, my course makes great play at certain times of year (ie just before the AGM!) of the Stimp' speeds. I happen to know however, that the readings are only ever taken on one green, on one day of the week and always at around 10.0am, so I'm somewhat skeptical of the procedure followed and the outcome.

As an aside, for those who do use the Stimp' and publish details on the web or on the club noticeboard of the readings, thank you for displaying such openness.

atb

[Matt Wharton]

Reading through the responses so far, it seems to me that once I cut through it all I've rarely seen such agreement here and such intelligent responses, to the point.  But a question for the supers, or others who know the process well (I am in neither category) - how does the Stimpmeter help the super with consistency, assuming we're talking about consistency of all greens for the day.  Wouldn't the super know enough about his greens and the season and weather to set the proper cutting height for the day, and then cut all greens the same, with the same result?  Or is the first cut just a trial run, after which the super Stimps and then goes back out and makes adjustments to certain greens?  Stated otherwise, what's the exact process the super goes though in using the Stimpmeter for consistency purposes?  (Or, if it's for maintaining consistency from day to day, exactly how does that process work using the Stimpmeter?)

Gentlemen, I am the super at Carl's club and I have enjoyed reading through your commentary thus far.  Let me state up front, although I am a superintendent I am by no means an authority on the Stimpmeter.  I never actually owned one until 2010, and I only broke down then when it was determined we would become the host course for the PGA Tour's Wells Fargo Championship Qualifying Tournaments.  I was concerned the Carolinas PGA Section, which administers those two events on behalf of the tour, would come in and mandate a certain green speed.  That has not been the case.  Their only concern is the green speed on the day of competition matches the green speed from the practice rounds the day before.

I will say when the device was first invented the purpose was so greenkeepers could maintain a level of consistency from one green to the next within the golf course.  I believe this is still true today with professional tournament golf where a speed, or speed range is identified for the competition and the superintendent is able to use a stimpmeter to determine the correct course of action from day-to-day and green-to-green in order to deliver a consistent level of putting green speed.  However I am not aware of too many clubs that use a stimpmeter for that purpose day-to-day.  For one it is not practical, we have limited budgets, resources, man power, and time thus the ability to treat 18 greens uniquely in order to create one identical speed over 18 surfaces is not common in my opinion.  If we were conducting a major championship and one or two greens stimped slower than the rest with the same mowing and rolling regime, maybe we perform a second roll, etc. in order to get the speeds to match but that is professional major championship golf, not everyday recreational golf.

Call me old fashioned, but I believe if the 12th green is always a touch slower than the other greens on the course then you should know that (after all, it is called local knowledge).  As for how have I used mine since 2010?  I have used it to learn what speed works best for my greens.  By that, I know what the reaction of the majority of members will be based on what they stimp any given day.  I don't post the readings, and I rarely share them when asked ("You want the truth, you can't handle the truth").  The truth is most average golfers assume the speed is quicker than it actually is.  When the greens here stimp 9.5 everyone thinks they are 10.  When the greens here stimp 10 everyone thinks they are 10.5.  When the greens here stimp 10.5 everyone thinks they are 11.5 (notice the jump).  When the greens here stimp 11 plus everyone thinks they stimp 12 to 13!  Contours are everything and our greens are ideally suited for a speed closer to 10 than 11.  You would be amazed what a difference 3 inches makes when you are going from 10'6" to 10'9", but what speed works best for the greens at Carolina is not necessarily what works best for the greens across the street, and that is why I don't bother to share the numbers because information in the wrong hands, used improperly can be dangerous.  Plus, I don't check them daily.  We mow them, we roll them, and we maintain them to be as good as they possibly can be on that particular day... and as for the speed that day, it is what it is. 

[Carl Johnson]

And for Matt's explanation of our grass growing approach on the greens as affected by summer weather, see the July 3 (2014) post on his blog: http://www.carolinagreenkeeper.blogspot.com/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Call me old fashioned, but I believe if the 12th green is always a touch slower than the other greens on the course then you should know that (after all, it is called local knowledge). 

Matt,

That doesn't help a guest much, does it ?

You know that green speeds vary depending upon a number of factors.
Given cool, ideal conditions, you might have your greens putting at 11.
Given hot, humid conditions, you might have your greens putting at 9.

How is the golfer able to interpolate the speed that the 12th green will be played on any given day ?
Is it a foot slower, two feet slower, half a foot slower ?
Why should the golfer have to guess ?
Why should the golfer have to adjust his approach, recovery, read and stroke, by guestimating the speed of the 12th green ?

But, let's now take it a step further, suppose that the 14th green putts faster than all the other greens.
Now, 16 putt consistently, one slower, one faster.

Taken another step further, 4 greens putt slower, 4 putt faster and 10 putt the same, and all putt differently from the practice putting green.

Now what ?

This is the very reason that the Stimpmeter was invented, to gauge speeds with an eye toward achieving consistency.

As for how have I used mine since 2010?  I have used it to learn what speed works best for my greens.  By that, I know what the reaction of the majority of members will be based on what they stimp any given day.  I don't post the readings, and I rarely share them when asked ("You want the truth, you can't handle the truth").  The truth is most average golfers assume the speed is quicker than it actually is.  When the greens here stimp 9.5 everyone thinks they are 10.  When the greens here stimp 10 everyone thinks they are 10.5.  When the greens here stimp 10.5 everyone thinks they are 11.5 (notice the jump).  When the greens here stimp 11 plus everyone thinks they stimp 12 to 13!  Contours are everything and our greens are ideally suited for a speed closer to 10 than 11.

I'd agree, I think most overestimate speeds.
Don't forget slope. 

You would be amazed what a difference 3 inches makes when you are going from 10'6" to 10'9", but what speed works best for the greens at Carolina is not necessarily what works best for the greens across the street, and that is why I don't bother to share the numbers because information in the wrong hands, used improperly can be dangerous. 

Agreed.

Plus, I don't check them daily.  We mow them, we roll them, and we maintain them to be as good as they possibly can be on that particular day... and as for the speed that day, it is what it is. 

As long as every morning's intent is for consistency, what more can you do ?
Mother Nature often makes the decision on speed for you.

[Carl Johnson]

Call me old fashioned, but I believe if the 12th green is always a touch slower than the other greens on the course then you should know that (after all, it is called local knowledge).  

To respond to the Devil's advocate.
Matt,

That doesn't help a guest much, does it ?

No, and why should it?  You want "perfect" uniformity, consistency for both players?  Play billiards, or go bowling.  Golf's an outdoor sport, subect to all kinds of vagaries.

You know that green speeds vary depending upon a number of factors.
Given cool, ideal conditions, you might have your greens putting at 11.
Given hot, humid conditions, you might have your greens putting at 9.

How is the golfer able to interpolate the speed that the 12th green will be played on any given day ?
Is it a foot slower, two feet slower, half a foot slower ?
Why should the golfer have to guess ?

Not guess, but try to figure it out, which may be a guess, but, hey, that's golf!
Why should the golfer have to adjust his approach, recovery, read and stroke, by guestimating the speed of the 12th green ?

Because that's golf, not billiards.

But, let's now take it a step further, suppose that the 14th green putts faster than all the other greens.
Now, 16 putt consistently, one slower, one faster.

Don't get it?  There is only one 16 on our course.  So, how does one putt consistently faster and the other slower?  Or is it slower or faster than 14, consistently?  That's Matt's point.  Learn it.  Local knowledege.

Taken another step further, 4 greens putt slower, 4 putt faster and 10 putt the same, and all putt differently from the practice putting green.

Now what ?

This is the very reason that the Stimpmeter was invented, to gauge speeds with an eye toward achieving consistency.

So, I do the Stimp, and we tell our guests we're at 10.0.  WTF does that mean to them?  Do they know how to putt a 10.0 vs. a 9.5 vs. a 10. 5?  Of course not.  But, as Matt points out, it's impractical and unreasonable to do Stimping every day, and to adjust throughout the daily mowing/rolling, to get it "perfect."
As for how have I used mine since 2010?  I have used it to learn what speed works best for my greens.  By that, I know what the reaction of the majority of members will be based on what they stimp any given day.  I don't post the readings, and I rarely share them when asked ("You want the truth, you can't handle the truth").  The truth is most average golfers assume the speed is quicker than it actually is.  When the greens here stimp 9.5 everyone thinks they are 10.  When the greens here stimp 10 everyone thinks they are 10.5.  When the greens here stimp 10.5 everyone thinks they are 11.5 (notice the jump).  When the greens here stimp 11 plus everyone thinks they stimp 12 to 13!  Contours are everything and our greens are ideally suited for a speed closer to 10 than 11.

I'd agree, I think most overestimate speeds.
Don't forget slope.  

You would be amazed what a difference 3 inches makes when you are going from 10'6" to 10'9", but what speed works best for the greens at Carolina is not necessarily what works best for the greens across the street, and that is why I don't bother to share the numbers because information in the wrong hands, used improperly can be dangerous.

Agreed.

Plus, I don't check them daily.  We mow them, we roll them, and we maintain them to be as good as they possibly can be on that particular day... and as for the speed that day, it is what it is.  

As long as every morning's intent is for consistency, what more can you do ?
Mother Nature often makes the decision on speed for you.

[A.G._Crockett]

Reading through the responses so far, it seems to me that once I cut through it all I've rarely seen such agreement here and such intelligent responses, to the point.  But a question for the supers, or others who know the process well (I am in neither category) - how does the Stimpmeter help the super with consistency, assuming we're talking about consistency of all greens for the day.  Wouldn't the super know enough about his greens and the season and weather to set the proper cutting height for the day, and then cut all greens the same, with the same result?  Or is the first cut just a trial run, after which the super Stimps and then goes back out and makes adjustments to certain greens?  Stated otherwise, what's the exact process the super goes though in using the Stimpmeter for consistency purposes?  (Or, if it's for maintaining consistency from day to day, exactly how does that process work using the Stimpmeter?)

At least at my club, the goal of using the stimp is consistency from day to day.  The super takes a reading at the same spot on the same green each day after mowing, and then posts that number on a board in the pro shop where players check in.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm familiar with the Stimp' and how it's used and the averages calculated etc.

What I'm not familiar with, and perhaps those in the business who do use the Stimpmeter regularly, could help me here, is how many greens should you use it on, whether it should it be used every day, and at what time of day.

Please forgive me enquiring with such obvious questions but I'm just trying to establish a picture of what occurs at a course where the Stimp' is used. For example, my course makes great play at certain times of year (ie just before the AGM!) of the Stimp' speeds. I happen to know however, that the readings are only ever taken on one green, on one day of the week and always at around 10.0am, so I'm somewhat skeptical of the procedure followed and the outcome.

As an aside, for those who do use the Stimp' and publish details on the web or on the club noticeboard of the readings, thank you for displaying such openness.

atb

Thomas,
The only way the readings would make sense would be to do it at the same time on the same place of the same green each day, right?  The greens change during the day, and there are faster and slower putts all over the golf course.  As long as you take a reading the same way every day, you get the information you want. 

While it is true that players prefer faster than slower, I think that most players prefer a consistent speed day in and day out to varying speeds.  That's the function of monitoring, and it has to be done the same way each day to mean anything.

[jeffwarne]

Reading through the responses so far, it seems to me that once I cut through it all I've rarely seen such agreement here and such intelligent responses, to the point.  But a question for the supers, or others who know the process well (I am in neither category) - how does the Stimpmeter help the super with consistency, assuming we're talking about consistency of all greens for the day.  Wouldn't the super know enough about his greens and the season and weather to set the proper cutting height for the day, and then cut all greens the same, with the same result?  Or is the first cut just a trial run, after which the super Stimps and then goes back out and makes adjustments to certain greens?  Stated otherwise, what's the exact process the super goes though in using the Stimpmeter for consistency purposes?  (Or, if it's for maintaining consistency from day to day, exactly how does that process work using the Stimpmeter?)

At least at my club, the goal of using the stimp is consistency from day to day.  The super takes a reading at the same spot on the same green each day after mowing, and then posts that number on a board in the pro shop where players check in.

AG
Do you put the tee markers and pins in the exact same place every day?
Why the worry about speeds being consistent from day to day?
Should they be the same speed on a crisp no humidity fall day after a frost as they are on a humid sultry Atlanta summer day.?
Do you monitor the wind speed and temperature inside the dome as well?
How did golfer's expectations get so ffffed up as to remove one of the great challenges of the game-judgement.
Do people go home if the pro shop sign is lower than they expect/want it to be?
Does it help them to know to hit their putts softer or harder?

[A.G._Crockett]

Reading through the responses so far, it seems to me that once I cut through it all I've rarely seen such agreement here and such intelligent responses, to the point.  But a question for the supers, or others who know the process well (I am in neither category) - how does the Stimpmeter help the super with consistency, assuming we're talking about consistency of all greens for the day.  Wouldn't the super know enough about his greens and the season and weather to set the proper cutting height for the day, and then cut all greens the same, with the same result?  Or is the first cut just a trial run, after which the super Stimps and then goes back out and makes adjustments to certain greens?  Stated otherwise, what's the exact process the super goes though in using the Stimpmeter for consistency purposes?  (Or, if it's for maintaining consistency from day to day, exactly how does that process work using the Stimpmeter?)

At least at my club, the goal of using the stimp is consistency from day to day.  The super takes a reading at the same spot on the same green each day after mowing, and then posts that number on a board in the pro shop where players check in.

AG
Do you put the tee markers and pins in the exact same place every day?
Why the worry about speeds being consistent from day to day?
Should they be the same speed on a crisp no humidity fall day after a frost as they are on a humid sultry Atlanta summer day.?
Do you monitor the wind speed and temperature inside the dome as well?
How did golfer's expectations get so ffffed up as to remove one of the great challenges of the game-judgement.
Do people go home if the pro shop sign is lower than they expect/want it to be?
Does it help them to know to hit their putts softer or harder?

Jeff,
I take your point, but I'm only telling you what most players want and what our course does.  And I would doubt that most superintendents would be happy with a product that was inconsistent from day to day; it isn't so much "worry" as it is pride in their product, I think.

And at that, a player still doesn't KNOW how hard to hit the putt just by reading the stimp number.  That number is arrived at on a flat portion of one green.  There are putts all over the course that are uphill, downhill, sidehill, down grain, and so on.  That's the challenge for the player, isn't it?  But I do think that most players, and maybe moreso the good ones, wouldn't enjoy golf at a course where the greens were 7 one day and 10 the next.  That's a pretty random way to play golf.

The other comparisons are really kind of apples and oranges to green speed.  Tees and pin positions are moved around for variety, but mostly for turf health thru traffic management.

And lastly, the answer to this question "Should they be the same speed on a crisp no humidity fall day after a frost as they are on a humid sultry Atlanta summer day?"  is, "Of course not!"   Our greens are significantly faster the rest of the year than they will be for the next two months as we try to hang on to them during the hot weather, and by August 1 they might be REALLY slow.  That's not the point, though.  The comparison isn't July 4th to October 4th; it's July 4th to July 5th.  THAT is the consistency that the super is trying for and the players appreciate (if they don't take it for granted!).

BTW, I think if you talked to ANY qualified superintendent in the country, they'd be able to tell you off the top of their head the height of their cuts of not only greens, but tees, fairways, and the rough.  While they don't mow each of those every day like they do the greens, they aren't operating in a random fashion on any of this stuff. 

[Ben Lovett]

There are several other newer tools aimed at smoothness rather than speed which are getting more and more use in Europe
http://www.parrymeter.com/
http://www.stri.co.uk/trade/focus-on-smoothness-for-greens-health-and-performance/
Currently we are 49 Celsius or 120 F with bent-grass greens so speed is the last thing on my mind
P.S managed to loose my stimp sometime last year

[Sean_A]

Jeff

I agree with AG.  Unless there is some compelling reason (weather!) for greens to be a very different speed each day, I can see why folks would hate that.  We just had that scenario at RC.  The greens were slow on the first day and dramitically kicked up on the second day.  I didn't get what was going on and found it very odd.  Somewhere between the two would ahve suited my fine 

Ciao

[Matt Wharton]

Call me old fashioned, but I believe if the 12th green is always a touch slower than the other greens on the course then you should know that (after all, it is called local knowledge). 

Matt,

That doesn't help a guest much, does it ?

You know that green speeds vary depending upon a number of factors.
Given cool, ideal conditions, you might have your greens putting at 11.
Given hot, humid conditions, you might have your greens putting at 9.

How is the golfer able to interpolate the speed that the 12th green will be played on any given day ?
Is it a foot slower, two feet slower, half a foot slower ?
Why should the golfer have to guess ?
Why should the golfer have to adjust his approach, recovery, read and stroke, by guestimating the speed of the 12th green ?

But, let's now take it a step further, suppose that the 14th green putts faster than all the other greens.
Now, 16 putt consistently, one slower, one faster.

Taken another step further, 4 greens putt slower, 4 putt faster and 10 putt the same, and all putt differently from the practice putting green.

Now what ?

This is the very reason that the Stimpmeter was invented, to gauge speeds with an eye toward achieving consistency.

As for how have I used mine since 2010?  I have used it to learn what speed works best for my greens.  By that, I know what the reaction of the majority of members will be based on what they stimp any given day.  I don't post the readings, and I rarely share them when asked ("You want the truth, you can't handle the truth").  The truth is most average golfers assume the speed is quicker than it actually is.  When the greens here stimp 9.5 everyone thinks they are 10.  When the greens here stimp 10 everyone thinks they are 10.5.  When the greens here stimp 10.5 everyone thinks they are 11.5 (notice the jump).  When the greens here stimp 11 plus everyone thinks they stimp 12 to 13!  Contours are everything and our greens are ideally suited for a speed closer to 10 than 11.

I'd agree, I think most overestimate speeds.
Don't forget slope. 

You would be amazed what a difference 3 inches makes when you are going from 10'6" to 10'9", but what speed works best for the greens at Carolina is not necessarily what works best for the greens across the street, and that is why I don't bother to share the numbers because information in the wrong hands, used improperly can be dangerous.

Agreed.

Plus, I don't check them daily.  We mow them, we roll them, and we maintain them to be as good as they possibly can be on that particular day... and as for the speed that day, it is what it is. 

As long as every morning's intent is for consistency, what more can you do ?
Mother Nature often makes the decision on speed for you.

Patrick,

My comment about the 12th was a little tongue-in-cheek.  You are right that on any given course several greens could potentially have a wider disparity between speeds.  Many factors are at play (shade vs sun, low lying vs high ground, etc), not to mention type of grass, budget, etc.  My point was there are far too many courses that do not have the resources or the time to get 18 identical speeds.  We only have so much time and so many other things to do (mow tees, fairways, roughs, rake bunkers, string trim, etc., etc.).  You typically treat all greens the same each day and if you stimp two or three greens, most likely everything is within a few inches of each other throughout the course.  But on some courses those natural variances (sun-shade, etc.) may cause one green to always seem a little quicker or one to always seem a little slower than most others.  At least this is the way it was at the course I grew up on.  You knew from having played the course over and over that this putt on this green is the fastest putt on the course (why I made the local knowledge comment).  With professional tournament golf the host courses have so many volunteers for the event they can modify and tweak each green if necessary to achieve consistency without hindering their ability to complete all other necessary tasks.  Most golf courses just don't have that luxury.  Perhaps I'm just too cynical about the whole idea, but that is just me.

I will share a true story, this occurred here at Carolina before 2010 (prior to having a Stimpmeter).  A young man (college golfer) was putting on our practice green.  He stopped me to compliment the quality of the putting surface.  He said, "The greens are absolutely perfect!  What are they rolling right now, about 12 or 12.5?"  I said, "I don't know, but if I did I wouldn't tell you."  He said, "Why?"  My response, "What if they were not 12?  What if they were less than 12 and I told you, would they still be perfect?  You have already established in your mind what perfection is, if in reality they were not what you thought would your thought then change?"

Having played this game for 40 years and worked in the industry for over 25, I can confidently say I know green speeds.  Last fall my wife and I went to another course in our area to play one afternoon.  Behind the Pro Shop counter in big, bold letters was Today's Green Speed 11.  I three-putted the first three holes because I couldn't get the ball to the hole.  Even though I struck a few putts prior to starting play, that number was embedded in my subconscious.  Those greens were probably a true 10 to 10'3" (Egos!)

I don't believe I should have to strive to achieve a certain number on any given day.  I believe I should give the members the best possible playing surfaces they can play on that day.  Many factors can affect the speed on any given day, but for the most part our greens are pretty consistent during the seasons.  We are known for having the best greens in town and they are fast during the fall, winter, and spring... a little slower in the heat of summer, but always smooth.

Cheers,

[jeffwarne]

Reading through the responses so far, it seems to me that once I cut through it all I've rarely seen such agreement here and such intelligent responses, to the point.  But a question for the supers, or others who know the process well (I am in neither category) - how does the Stimpmeter help the super with consistency, assuming we're talking about consistency of all greens for the day.  Wouldn't the super know enough about his greens and the season and weather to set the proper cutting height for the day, and then cut all greens the same, with the same result?  Or is the first cut just a trial run, after which the super Stimps and then goes back out and makes adjustments to certain greens?  Stated otherwise, what's the exact process the super goes though in using the Stimpmeter for consistency purposes?  (Or, if it's for maintaining consistency from day to day, exactly how does that process work using the Stimpmeter?)

At least at my club, the goal of using the stimp is consistency from day to day.  The super takes a reading at the same spot on the same green each day after mowing, and then posts that number on a board in the pro shop where players check in.

AG
Do you put the tee markers and pins in the exact same place every day?
Why the worry about speeds being consistent from day to day?
Should they be the same speed on a crisp no humidity fall day after a frost as they are on a humid sultry Atlanta summer day.?
Do you monitor the wind speed and temperature inside the dome as well?
How did golfer's expectations get so ffffed up as to remove one of the great challenges of the game-judgement.
Do people go home if the pro shop sign is lower than they expect/want it to be?
Does it help them to know to hit their putts softer or harder?

Jeff,
I take your point, but I'm only telling you what most players want and what our course does.  And I would doubt that most superintendents would be happy with a product that was inconsistent from day to day; it isn't so much "worry" as it is pride in their product, I think.

And at that, a player still doesn't KNOW how hard to hit the putt just by reading the stimp number.  That number is arrived at on a flat portion of one green.  There are putts all over the course that are uphill, downhill, sidehill, down grain, and so on.  That's the challenge for the player, isn't it?  But I do think that most players, and maybe moreso the good ones, wouldn't enjoy golf at a course where the greens were 7 one day and 10 the next.  That's a pretty random way to play golf.

The other comparisons are really kind of apples and oranges to green speed.  Tees and pin positions are moved around for variety, but mostly for turf health thru traffic management.

And lastly, the answer to this question "Should they be the same speed on a crisp no humidity fall day after a frost as they are on a humid sultry Atlanta summer day?"  is, "Of course not!"   Our greens are significantly faster the rest of the year than they will be for the next two months as we try to hang on to them during the hot weather, and by August 1 they might be REALLY slow.  That's not the point, though.  The comparison isn't July 4th to October 4th; it's July 4th to July 5th.  THAT is the consistency that the super is trying for and the players appreciate (if they don't take it for granted!).

BTW, I think if you talked to ANY qualified superintendent in the country, they'd be able to tell you off the top of their head the height of their cuts of not only greens, but tees, fairways, and the rough.  While they don't mow each of those every day like they do the greens, they aren't operating in a random fashion on any of this stuff. 

a very well measured response
Thank You.
Most golfers would agree with that for sure.

I think golfers are focused on nearly all the wrong things when they evaluate/plan a round at a course, but I am in the minority for sure

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

I agree with AG.  Unless there is some compelling reason (weather!) for greens to be a very different speed each day, I can see why folks would hate that.  We just had that scenario at RC.  The greens were slow on the first day and dramitically kicked up on the second day.  I didn't get what was going on and found it very odd.  Somewhere between the two would ahve suited my fine  

Ciao

Sean,
that sounds like the post of a card and pencil sort.
Surely when you noticed the first and or second green was faster than the day before you could make an adjustment in your stroke, a sadly disappearing part of the game. Such a thought that the greens were different never occurred to me and I played both days as well.
Folks hate a lot of things-doesn't make 'em right, and I bet they'd love the reduced cost of green fees if some of the bells and whistles cost saving was passed onto them.

What I love about the UK/Ireland is that greens are often cut intermittently(or at least used to be), or at least later in the day than before the first group out as in America-delaying the start of dewsweepers to give the crew a chance to get everything all consistent .

Many times in the UK/Ireland I've seen crews out cutting the first green as I was walking off 18.
I think one can learn a lot about their putting and green reading skills by playing with dew on the greens, a phenomena that would lead to screaming by a member or paying guest nowadays in the US. Pity

[A.G._Crockett]

Call me old fashioned, but I believe if the 12th green is always a touch slower than the other greens on the course then you should know that (after all, it is called local knowledge). 

Matt,

That doesn't help a guest much, does it ?

You know that green speeds vary depending upon a number of factors.
Given cool, ideal conditions, you might have your greens putting at 11.
Given hot, humid conditions, you might have your greens putting at 9.

How is the golfer able to interpolate the speed that the 12th green will be played on any given day ?
Is it a foot slower, two feet slower, half a foot slower ?
Why should the golfer have to guess ?
Why should the golfer have to adjust his approach, recovery, read and stroke, by guestimating the speed of the 12th green ?

But, let's now take it a step further, suppose that the 14th green putts faster than all the other greens.
Now, 16 putt consistently, one slower, one faster.

Taken another step further, 4 greens putt slower, 4 putt faster and 10 putt the same, and all putt differently from the practice putting green.

Now what ?

This is the very reason that the Stimpmeter was invented, to gauge speeds with an eye toward achieving consistency.

As for how have I used mine since 2010?  I have used it to learn what speed works best for my greens.  By that, I know what the reaction of the majority of members will be based on what they stimp any given day.  I don't post the readings, and I rarely share them when asked ("You want the truth, you can't handle the truth").  The truth is most average golfers assume the speed is quicker than it actually is.  When the greens here stimp 9.5 everyone thinks they are 10.  When the greens here stimp 10 everyone thinks they are 10.5.  When the greens here stimp 10.5 everyone thinks they are 11.5 (notice the jump).  When the greens here stimp 11 plus everyone thinks they stimp 12 to 13!  Contours are everything and our greens are ideally suited for a speed closer to 10 than 11.

I'd agree, I think most overestimate speeds.
Don't forget slope. 

You would be amazed what a difference 3 inches makes when you are going from 10'6" to 10'9", but what speed works best for the greens at Carolina is not necessarily what works best for the greens across the street, and that is why I don't bother to share the numbers because information in the wrong hands, used improperly can be dangerous.

Agreed.

Plus, I don't check them daily.  We mow them, we roll them, and we maintain them to be as good as they possibly can be on that particular day... and as for the speed that day, it is what it is. 

As long as every morning's intent is for consistency, what more can you do ?
Mother Nature often makes the decision on speed for you.

Patrick,

My comment about the 12th was a little tongue-in-cheek.  You are right that on any given course several greens could potentially have a wider disparity between speeds.  Many factors are at play (shade vs sun, low lying vs high ground, etc), not to mention type of grass, budget, etc.  My point was there are far too many courses that do not have the resources or the time to get 18 identical speeds.  We only have so much time and so many other things to do (mow tees, fairways, roughs, rake bunkers, string trim, etc., etc.).  You typically treat all greens the same each day and if you stimp two or three greens, most likely everything is within a few inches of each other throughout the course.  But on some courses those natural variances (sun-shade, etc.) may cause one green to always seem a little quicker or one to always seem a little slower than most others.  At least this is the way it was at the course I grew up on.  You knew from having played the course over and over that this putt on this green is the fastest putt on the course (why I made the local knowledge comment).  With professional tournament golf the host courses have so many volunteers for the event they can modify and tweak each green if necessary to achieve consistency without hindering their ability to complete all other necessary tasks.  Most golf courses just don't have that luxury.  Perhaps I'm just too cynical about the whole idea, but that is just me.

I will share a true story, this occurred here at Carolina before 2010 (prior to having a Stimpmeter).  A young man (college golfer) was putting on our practice green.  He stopped me to compliment the quality of the putting surface.  He said, "The greens are absolutely perfect!  What are they rolling right now, about 12 or 12.5?"  I said, "I don't know, but if I did I wouldn't tell you."  He said, "Why?"  My response, "What if they were not 12?  What if they were less than 12 and I told you, would they still be perfect?  You have already established in your mind what perfection is, if in reality they were not what you thought would your thought then change?"

Having played this game for 40 years and worked in the industry for over 25, I can confidently say I know green speeds.  Last fall my wife and I went to another course in our area to play one afternoon.  Behind the Pro Shop counter in big, bold letters was Today's Green Speed 11.  I three-putted the first three holes because I couldn't get the ball to the hole.  Even though I struck a few putts prior to starting play, that number was embedded in my subconscious.  Those greens were probably a true 10 to 10'3" (Egos!)

I don't believe I should have to strive to achieve a certain number on any given day.  I believe I should give the members the best possible playing surfaces they can play on that day.  Many factors can affect the speed on any given day, but for the most part our greens are pretty consistent during the seasons.  We are known for having the best greens in town and they are fast during the fall, winter, and spring... a little slower in the heat of summer, but always smooth.

Cheers,

Matt,
I think the gist of the thread hasn't been about requiring supers to "achieve a certain number on a given day."  It's been about supers striving for consistency day-to-day and informing the membership as to those efforts.  

I am 100% certain that there are memberships that DO insist on greens that are faster than is healthy for the grass, but I don't think I see how more information coming from the super to the membership about what is going on with the golf course can be harmful.  I wouldn't include just green speeds in that, either.  

As to your putting experience at the course that posted an 11, I don't find that to be a bit surprising, nor an indictment of posting a green speed.  I assume that the purpose of posting the daily number is to inform the golfers as to day-to-day consistency and a general speed for that day; it doesn't tell me how hard to hit ANY particular putt on any particular green!  If on the first three holes I hit a proper approach and putt from below the hole and leave all three short, was it because I read a number on a sign, because I didn't want a downhill comebacker, or because I made poor strokes?  In any case, that's 100% on me and not on the course for making the number public.

If you are secure enough in your job to tell players that you don't know the green speeds and if you did you wouldn't tell them anyway, you are one lucky guy, probably because you do a great job!  But I'm not sure I see how a super not informing the paying membership of a club what the course conditions are is, in general, a good thing.

[Thomas Dai]

AG,
Thanks for your thoughts. When I read your response to my initial post I wasn't totally clear but your comments in relation to the other posts have clarified things.

I like God's Stimpmeter myself. Find a sensible pin-position with a rise or slope nearby. Drop a few balls. If the balls roll to far away or even off the green then the greens are most likely too fast. If the balls roll and stop halfway down the nearby slope then the greens are probably too slow. Applies summer and winter, dry or humid. Just find a suitable spot.

atb

[jeffwarne]

Just find a suitable spot.

atb

Then post a sign in the shop that says
 "pins in suitable spots"
followed by another that says "if your first three putts are short, perhaps you might consider making a larger stroke or hit it harder"
reverse the advice if putts are long


or...just go play golf

[Patrick_Mucci]

Call me old fashioned, but I believe if the 12th green is always a touch slower than the other greens on the course then you should know that (after all, it is called local knowledge).

To respond to the Devil's advocate.

Matt,

That doesn't help a guest much, does it ?

No, and why should it?

Because golf isn't about deceit and gimmickerie, it's about preparing consistent playing surfaces, for all who play the course, first timers as well as seasoned daily players.


You want "perfect" uniformity, consistency for both players?

That's your misguided interpretation.
NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE championed striving for "perfect" conditions.
That's your straw man.

A fundamental basis for maintenance is striving for consistent conditions.  

Play billiards, or go bowling.  Golf's an outdoor sport, subect to all kinds of vagaries.

The vagaries of an outdoor sport are those beyond the control of those charged with preparing the field of play.
In case you hadn't noticed, the baseball field is dirt in the infield, grass in the outfield.
And, the grass in the outfield isn't 6 inches high.
Nor is the dirt in the infield powdery, such that the players feet sink in like sand on a beach.
It's a prepared surface.
Ditto Football and Soccer fields.

A golf course is also a field of play, specially prepared for that purpose.
And as such, consistency IS an object of preparing that field.


You know that green speeds vary depending upon a number of factors.
Given cool, ideal conditions, you might have your greens putting at 11.
Given hot, humid conditions, you might have your greens putting at 9.

How is the golfer able to interpolate the speed that the 12th green will be played on any given day ?
Is it a foot slower, two feet slower, half a foot slower ?
Why should the golfer have to guess ?

Not guess, but try to figure it out, which may be a guess, but, hey, that's golf!

Since you're so skilled, tell us, when arriving on a green, say the 6th green, how do you know, how do you try to figure out, that the speed of that green is the same, faster or slower than the previous five greens ?

Having one green slow, the next fast, the next medium, the next fast, the next slow isn't how a field of play should be prepared.
Consistency is an objective of maintenance practices.

Unless of course you feel that a course should have firm, fast fairways, but, wet, spongy approaches.


Why should the golfer have to adjust his approach, recovery, read and stroke, by guestimating the speed of the 12th green ?

Because that's golf, not billiards.

That's not golf, it's Mickey Mouse, Goofy golf.
Consistency should always be an objective in maintenance practices.


But, let's now take it a step further, suppose that the 14th green putts faster than all the other greens.
Now, 16 putt consistently, one slower, one faster.

Don't get it?  There is only one 16 on our course.  So, how does one putt consistently faster and the other slower?  
Or is it slower or faster than 14, consistently?  That's Matt's point.  Learn it.  

In terms of learning it, I'd suggest that you reread my paragraph above as  you obviously didn't understand it.

And, that's NOT Matt's point, which you missed.

Local knowledege.

Local knowledge tends to be about terrain and play, not maintenance practices.

To advocate, as you have, for inconsistent playing surfaces and conditions is beyond moronic.


Taken another step further, 4 greens putt slower, 4 putt faster and 10 putt the same, and all putt differently from the practice putting green.

Now what ?

This is the very reason that the Stimpmeter was invented, to gauge speeds with an eye toward achieving consistency.

So, I do the Stimp, and we tell our guests we're at 10.0.  WTF does that mean to them?


I'll tell you what it means.
It means that when the stimp readings were taken in the morning, the greens stimped at 10.
That gives the golfer a good general idea as to the speed of the greens.

Do they know how to putt a 10.0 vs. a 9.5 vs. a 10. 5?  Of course not.  

It's not an incremental indicator.
They don't have to know the incremental differential before they tee off.
If the practice putting green is cut to 10 on the stimp, they'll figure out how to cope with the speed of the greens ON THAT DAY


But, as Matt points out, it's impractical and unreasonable to do Stimping every day, and to adjust throughout the daily mowing/rolling, to get it "perfect."

Since you seem to be hung up on the word "perfect", let me repeat that NO ONE ever advocated for "perfect"
That's solely a figment of your imagination.

And, NO ONE ever advocated for adjusting throughout the daily mowing.
Mother Nature tends to set blade height.
Mother Nature tends to dictate speeds with the club and Superintendent striving for what they've established as the optimal speed for the greens, given Mother Nature's constraints.


As for how have I used mine since 2010?  I have used it to learn what speed works best for my greens.  By that, I know what the reaction of the majority of members will be based on what they stimp any given day.  I don't post the readings, and I rarely share them when asked ("You want the truth, you can't handle the truth")

What would happen if a member acquired a stimp and learned that the greens were putting at 8 ?

Now let's suppose that that particular member was just appointed Green Chairman and he felt that the greens should putt, Mother Nature permitting, between 9 and 10.

Let's also suppose that his twin brother was just appointed President.

Are you going to try to strive for 9-10 or stand in rigid defiance ?

P.S. I couldn't comment on the speed of your greens until after I've played them a few times.

The truth is most average golfers assume the speed is quicker than it actually is.  When the greens here stimp 9.5 everyone thinks they are 10.  When the greens here stimp 10 everyone thinks they are 10.5.  When the greens here stimp 10.5 everyone thinks they are 11.5 (notice the jump).  When the greens here stimp 11 plus everyone thinks they stimp 12 to 13!  Contours are everything and our greens are ideally suited for a speed closer to 10 than 11.

I'd agree, I think most overestimate speeds.
Don't forget slope.  

You would be amazed what a difference 3 inches makes when you are going from 10'6" to 10'9", but what speed works best for the greens at Carolina is not necessarily what works best for the greens across the street, and that is why I don't bother to share the numbers because information in the wrong hands, used improperly can be dangerous.

Agreed.

Plus, I don't check them daily.  We mow them, we roll them, and we maintain them to be as good as they possibly can be on that particular day... and as for the speed that day, it is what it is.  

As long as every morning's intent is for consistency, what more can you do ?
Mother Nature often makes the decision on speed for you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

My comment about the 12th was a little tongue-in-cheek. 

Understood.

You are right that on any given course several greens could potentially have a wider disparity between speeds.  Many factors are at play (shade vs sun, low lying vs high ground, etc), not to mention type of grass, budget, etc.  My point was there are far too many courses that do not have the resources or the time to get 18 identical speeds. 

Agree completely, that's why I cited budget differences in an earlier reply.

We only have so much time and so many other things to do (mow tees, fairways, roughs, rake bunkers, string trim, etc., etc.).  You typically treat all greens the same each day and if you stimp two or three greens, most likely everything is within a few inches of each other throughout the course.  But on some courses those natural variances (sun-shade, etc.) may cause one green to always seem a little quicker or one to always seem a little slower than most others.  At least this is the way it was at the course I grew up on.  You knew from having played the course over and over that this putt on this green is the fastest putt on the course (why I made the local knowledge comment). 

Understood, but, at the beginning of the day, the blade heights are all the same for every green.

On a course I'm very familiar with, the 3rd green sits above the fairway.
It dries out quicker, is firmer and faster than all of the other greens due to air flow, sunshine and other factors.
But, there's no intent to mow it at a higher height to equalize it's speed.
I think the awareness of the condition of that green is known to the general membership.
Experience is a great teacher.

With professional tournament golf the host courses have so many volunteers for the event they can modify and tweak each green if necessary to achieve consistency without hindering their ability to complete all other necessary tasks.  Most golf courses just don't have that luxury.  Perhaps I'm just too cynical about the whole idea, but that is just me.

I agree completely.
The problem is that the TV viewer, upon seeing the course on TV and hearing the announcers say that the greens are putting at 13, causes the viewer to think that with just the waive of a wand, that his greens can achieve those speeds with little in the way of amendments or money.

I will share a true story, this occurred here at Carolina before 2010 (prior to having a Stimpmeter).  A young man (college golfer) was putting on our practice green.  He stopped me to compliment the quality of the putting surface.  He said, "The greens are absolutely perfect!  What are they rolling right now, about 12 or 12.5?"  I said, "I don't know, but if I did I wouldn't tell you."  He said, "Why?"  My response, "What if they were not 12?  What if they were less than 12 and I told you, would they still be perfect?  You have already established in your mind what perfection is, if in reality they were not what you thought would your thought then change?"

The practice putting green should be maintained as the other 18 greens are maintained.
The practice putting green should be the first green on the golf course for preparation purposes.
The stimp is really a tool for you, a tool that will enable you, through your practices to strive for consistency.

Unfortunately, thanks to weekly PGA Tour telecasts, it's become a basis for "comparison" with other courses and that was never the original intent.

Having played this game for 40 years and worked in the industry for over 25, I can confidently say I know green speeds.  Last fall my wife and I went to another course in our area to play one afternoon.  Behind the Pro Shop counter in big, bold letters was Today's Green Speed 11.  I three-putted the first three holes because I couldn't get the ball to the hole.  Even though I struck a few putts prior to starting play, that number was embedded in my subconscious.  Those greens were probably a true 10 to 10'3" (Egos!)

Remember, that "11" was probably taken at 6:00-6:30 am on a sunlit green.
Things change during the day, grass grows, it gets more/less humid, etc., etc..
I see green speeds posted at a good number of clubs, and while I inventory that number, I rely on my experience on the practice putting green in determining my stroke for the day.

My BIG complaint is when the greens on the course don't putt anywhere near how the practice putting green putts.

I don't believe I should have to strive to achieve a certain number on any given day.

I'd agree with a caveat.
First, Mother Nature is the final arbiter in what's prudent with green speeds.
Second, like it or not, you have to consider the desire/will of the membership.
The problem with that is, what's th "golf IQ" of the membership. 

I believe I should give the members the best possible playing surfaces they can play on that day. 

Agreed.

You're the Professional, ergo you have to determine that.

Many factors can affect the speed on any given day, but for the most part our greens are pretty consistent during the seasons.  We are known for having the best greens in town and they are fast during the fall, winter, and spring... a little slower in the heat of summer, but always smooth.


AHHHHH, CONSISTENCY !

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