[Lynn_Shackelford]

Like many here, I started golf on municipal courses.  I think some have great ambience and tradition.  There is something about the older munis that make you feel a part of something that has lasted a long time.  In examining this list what I see is an abundance of well maintained upscale "public golf courses for a day."  Therefore, like most ratings, I dismiss this one as having much interest to someone truly interested in architecture.
Surely there must be 50 munis around the country, not on this list, but having better architecture than all these courses.  I suspect that the raters have blindly mistaken maintenance for architecture.
For example of courses I have played, Griffith Park, 36 holes in Los Angeles, Fulton Park in Atlanta, Cobb's Creek in Philly, Keney Park in Hartford, Reynolds Park in Winston Salem all would be preferred to most of the courses listed here.

I really don't think this is the kind of list Brad Klein imagined when he started this process.  Maybe he should separate the list with a timeframe as to when they opened.

[David Royer]

Headed out to Memorial in Houston tomorrow morning.  Read about it on thread so I thought I'd give it a go.  The winds were up and green we're fast at Ballyneal the last couple of days. Always special. 

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

The best part about Memorial Park is the BBQ place at the clubhouse...

[Adam Clayman]

Lynn, The numbers speak for themselves (at least since Pelican  ) so, it must be the delta, and make up of the panel that causes these numbers. With recent increases to the size of the panel, and a majority of those being metro area residents, It's not so surprising to see a course like Harborside. Of course the dearth of quality courses in the Chicagoland area, not shrouded in rough and trees, are few and far between.

Marovitz blows Harborside out of the water, architecturally.

[Mark Johnson]

Callahan, Richter is a course on my list. I hear so many good things about it, for a muni and all that entails.

I think Wintonbury is a top forty muni, but not a top fifteen.

Richter is excellent.

I'd rank the Fairfield County Munis as such:

1) Richter Park
2) Griffith Harris
3) Ridgefield
4) Sterling Farms
5) Longshore
6) H Smith Richardson
7) Wheeler- Red
Wheeler- Black
9) Oak Hills
10) Brennan

I just played Ridgefield for the first time this week.   Curious why you put the Griff over it?

[Mark Fedeli]

Callahan, Richter is a course on my list. I hear so many good things about it, for a muni and all that entails.

I think Wintonbury is a top forty muni, but not a top fifteen.

Richter is excellent.

I'd rank the Fairfield County Munis as such:

1) Richter Park
2) Griffith Harris
3) Ridgefield
4) Sterling Farms
5) Longshore
6) H Smith Richardson
7) Wheeler- Red
Wheeler- Black
9) Oak Hills
10) Brennan

I just played Ridgefield for the first time this week.   Curious why you put the Griff over it?

I forget the number, but that funky dogleg left, uphill par 5 at Ridgefield may be my nomination in the "Worst Hole You've Ever Played?" thread. Otherwise, I enjoyed the course well enough.

[Lou_Duran]

I've played 14 of GW's top 50.  If Pinion Hills is #7, Texas Star in Euless must be #6 with considerable separation.  TangleRidge in Grand Prairie and Tierra Verde in Arlington have had some maintenance problems (the latter has attempted an all organic approach and has been in poor condition for a long time) but IMO are superior courses architecturally.  Perhaps sample size is an issue with GW's list (not enough raters playing the courses).

[Michael Marzec]

Richard Hetzel:

Cleveland is fortunate to have both Sleepy Hollow and Manakiki. Played them both many times. Could make a case for either being better, but usually preferred Sleepy Hollow, especially back in the days when Charlie Sifford was the pro and the greens were maintained as well as any area private club.

I wish I lived closer to Cleveland as the course offerings are much better than Cincinnati. I only played 9 at Sleepy so I will need to get back there to play the rest.

I have a photo tour of Sleepy Hollow I have been meaning to post. Maybe once the season ends I can get my act together and get it done. I'm not sure my pictures do justice to the greens. It is a strong course on a great piece of land.

Rich - You really must get back and play the entire course.

[Philip Caccamise]

Callahan, Richter is a course on my list. I hear so many good things about it, for a muni and all that entails.

I think Wintonbury is a top forty muni, but not a top fifteen.

Richter is excellent.

I'd rank the Fairfield County Munis as such:

1) Richter Park
2) Griffith Harris
3) Ridgefield
4) Sterling Farms
5) Longshore
6) H Smith Richardson
7) Wheeler- Red
Wheeler- Black
9) Oak Hills
10) Brennan

I just played Ridgefield for the first time this week.   Curious why you put the Griff over it?

Good question. Neither are architectural marvels by any means, but both solid golf; Ridgefield always seemed to have too many "4 and 8" greenside bunkers for me, like there wasn't much thought put into them. I almost put Sterling Farms #2 because I always had fun playing there. Definitely a big dropoff from 4 to 5 on this list.

[Forrest Richardson]

Lynn — I like the idea of dividing the list MODERN and CLASSIC, just as Golfweek does with other lists. Also, I have a difficult time accepting that the TPC Scottsdale, at $200 for non residents, is in anyway a "muni". Perhaps there should also be a list of below $60 green fees (lowest rate) and above ?

Also, Re: Griffith Park…Harding in no way belongs on the list in its current state!     Wilson has merit, but even it does not belong until work is done to bring it up to snuff.

[Tom_Doak]

I drove my wife around Common Ground the other day while we were in Denver.  Too bad it's not officially a "muni" for this list -- but probably for the better since the CGA cares a lot more about it than most municipalities would!

There were kids all over the kids' course, the community putting green, and the course proper.  It was heartwarming to see.

Also, to Philip, it was amusing to see Sterling Farms (where I grew up) ranked by someone!

[Tim_Weiman]

I drove my wife around Common Ground the other day while we were in Denver.  Too bad it's not officially a "muni" for this list -- but probably for the better since the CGA cares a lot more about it than most municipalities would!

There were kids all over the kids' course, the community putting green, and the course proper.  It was heartwarming to see.

Also, to Philip, it was amusing to see Sterling Farms (where I grew up) ranked by someone!

Tom,

I'm hoping to get on a consulting gig in Denver and get a chance to play Common Ground again. Still think it is a project that, if possible, should be replicated elsewhere.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I'm hoping to get on a consulting gig in Denver and get a chance to play Common Ground again. Still think it is a project that, if possible, should be replicated elsewhere.

But what town would do such a thing?  Our mission statement was to take the $4 million they'd raised, and turn it into a really great $40 golf course; they didn't want to raise the green fee and price out their old customer base.  Most towns nowadays hope to turn a renovated course into a cash cow -- because there's "so much money in golf" -- and usually wind up turning it into a money pit, instead.

[Tim Pitner]

Tom,

I'm hoping to get on a consulting gig in Denver and get a chance to play Common Ground again. Still think it is a project that, if possible, should be replicated elsewhere.

But what town would do such a thing?  Our mission statement was to take the $4 million they'd raised, and turn it into a really great $40 golf course; they didn't want to raise the green fee and price out their old customer base. 

That's interesting, I honestly didn't realize the former Mira Vista had much of a customer base.  But, as more of a central Denver guy, maybe I wasn't up to speed on the East Denver/Aurora scene.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

My one round at Common Ground started as a single.  I soon caught with a 3 some.  Two guys who looked liked bartenders by night and muni golfers by day, and a 14 year old kind in tennis shoes who had a great swing and out drove me.  So cool the people you meet and play with on a $40 or under golf course.

Forest R., probably sad but true about Griffith Park, both the Harding and Wilson.  In its present state, the City of L.A. and its Golf Division will never have the ability or intelligence to restore either.  We sometimes error on looking at a course from what it used to be or what it could be.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'd be willing to bet that the least known course on the list is Arrowhead Pointe in Georgia; even most hard core golfers in Georgia have never played it!

Wonderful golf course on Lake Russell in Elberton, which was the Olympic rowing venue back in '96.  There is no housing on the lake, so it's like Lake Oconee w/o the McMansions.  The back nine runs around the lake and is just spectacular.  I was there about 6 weeks ago on a beautiful weekday; $35 and saw ONE other golfer.  Not one other group; one other PERSON.

If you are ever anywhere nearby, veer off I-85 and take the time to play it.  It's worth the effort.

[Jud_T]

What happened to Shepherd's Crook?

People figured out that the first few holes suck?

Actually IMO it's the last few...

[Philip Caccamise]

I drove my wife around Common Ground the other day while we were in Denver.  Too bad it's not officially a "muni" for this list -- but probably for the better since the CGA cares a lot more about it than most municipalities would!

There were kids all over the kids' course, the community putting green, and the course proper.  It was heartwarming to see.

Also, to Philip, it was amusing to see Sterling Farms (where I grew up) ranked by someone!

We need more Sterling Farms and less Pound Ridge in my opinion. It's not going to blow anyone away, but it's playable for all levels, always in great shape, walkable, and a really good price (for the area.) Just out of curiosity- how would you rank the Fairfield munis relative to my ranking?

[Tom_Doak]

Also, to Philip, it was amusing to see Sterling Farms (where I grew up) ranked by someone!

We need more Sterling Farms and less Pound Ridge in my opinion. It's not going to blow anyone away, but it's playable for all levels, always in great shape, walkable, and a really good price (for the area.) Just out of curiosity- how would you rank the Fairfield munis relative to my ranking?

No doubt, the $150 public course is not going to help grow the game.

I really can't rank the Fairfield County munis ... when I was a kid, most of them made it very difficult for an out-of-towner to play, so I have not played many at all.  I've walked Richter Park but not played it.  I did play D. Fairchild Wheeler and E. Gaynor Brennan [multiple times] and agree that they should be near the bottom.

[Don Mahaffey]

Tom,

I'm hoping to get on a consulting gig in Denver and get a chance to play Common Ground again. Still think it is a project that, if possible, should be replicated elsewhere.

But what town would do such a thing?  Our mission statement was to take the $4 million they'd raised, and turn it into a really great $40 golf course; they didn't want to raise the green fee and price out their old customer base.  Most towns nowadays hope to turn a renovated course into a cash cow -- because there's "so much money in golf" -- and usually wind up turning it into a money pit, instead.

I've been involved in two muni projects in the last year and both have added kids courses, one a pitch n putt and the other a short 9 hole. They have rec programs for kids and they view these areas as city amenities, like a ball field or a swimming pool, not a cash cow. BTW, both places have a green fee lower than $40.

I've also seen a number of RFPs for renovations that include kid course type areas to grow the game.

I think most munis, at least at smaller cities, are past the idea of their course being a cash cow.

[Tom_Doak]

I've been involved in two muni projects in the last year and both have added kids courses, one a pitch n putt and the other a short 9 hole. They have rec programs for kids and they view these areas as city amenities, like a ball field or a swimming pool, not a cash cow. BTW, both places have a green fee lower than $40.

I've also seen a number of RFPs for renovations that include kid course type areas to grow the game.

I think most munis, at least at smaller cities, are past the idea of their course being a cash cow.

Were the kids' courses on the two projects you were involved in included in the RFP, or were they the architect's suggestion?

You may be right that smaller cities think differently about it than the big towns do.  When I hear about a "muni" RFP, I think of those crazy $20 million projects in Palm Springs.  Actually, it's surprising to hear that there are any munis at all being built nowadays.

[Don Mahaffey]

Tom, they are renovations. Old irrigation systems, greens and bunkers failing, cart paths falling apart, tree removal, new grass...etc...maybe it is just in my part of the world where the oil boom is driving up tax revenues, but I am seeing some work.

In the two cases I mentioned, both were suggested by the architect, maybe even sold by the architect, but not a hard sell at all in both cases.
Since then, I have seen some RFPs for renovation work that included a short course or kids course. Don't know if they got built or not.

[Tim Martin]

I recently got a chance to play Sleepy Hollow and thought it was terrific. I’ve played Wintonbury a lot as a fan but can’t see it being ranked higher than Sleepy. Finally I’m looking forward to going back and playing Manakiki as the Cleveland faithful say it’s a must play.

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