Torrey Pines over MPCC Dunes??

[Dennis_Harwood]

Tom--exactly!

That is what was required by the USGA and only(and I mean only) Torrey would fit that bill--

Please reread my initial post-- I did not say Torrey deserved to be in the same class as the traditional Open venues you named, nor Pebble or perhaps Bethpage(as public venues)--

Nor did I say Rees could not have done a different(and perhaps better) job--

What I did say was that for the kind set up and play that will occur for the 2008 Open Torrey will create a very good track--It will test the players--It will get rave reviews from the players --It will get rave reviews from the press and the public--and I would not be surprised to see Torrey in the Open rota--

And because it has been redesigned for an Open setup and not to attract an Open and not to enhance everyday play (and it does look a lot different with rough cuts defining the hitting areas than no or light rough you see for public play) its going to be judged by the vision of how it will play for an Open-- Given that I can understand the some of the rationale for some voting its high ranking--

And again--other than La Purisima, Rustic and perhaps Barona(and I have played Sandpiper a lot)  I would rank all those public venue courses behind Torrey- And of course those noe of those three would get a nanna-second of consideration as an Open site--

[THuckaby2]

Dennis:

You've obviously convinced me as to its worth as an Open site.. and I also understand how this would enhance the courses reputation, and thus allow it to achieve its high ranking.

It's Tommy N. you're going to have to convince about all these things!

I do believe many SoCal public courses are "better" than TP-South, but my defintion of "better" may well differ from yours.  No hassles.

I do look forward to playing TP-South again some day, to see for myself.

And to Patrick M. - can I try this, off the top of my head, no checking?

MPCC Dunes and Shore - Seth Raynor originally

Dunes - Rees Jones re-do completed 3-4 years ago.

Shore - Mike Strantz re-do going on now.

Why this matters remains an open question, but I'll let you tell me.  I will say this:  I played the Dunes many times before the renovation and many times after.  At least based on my experience, it is a better course today than it was when I first played it 15 or so years ago.

The Shore re-do is gonna knock people's socks off, from all accounts... can't wait to see it complete.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick,

MPCC Dunes Course. 1925
Architect...... Seth Raynor, he died after construction of the  front nine. Completed by Robert Hunter. Renovated by Rees Jones in

Shore Course.  !961
Architect......Bob Baldock for the princely sum of $150,000. Apart from the same routing on holes 1 through 4,  the course is not a rebuilding or renovation, but a completely new creation. Mike Strantz of Maverick Designs.  

[THuckaby2]

Damn.  I had a feeling I was wrong about the Shore, that it wasn't that old... oh well.  Put another in the dumb column for me.  

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom I cannot believe you are sucking up on the Open issue. That alone is reason enough to make sure you come to New Mexico to let the group laugh out loud. I too am so excited to see the new Shore course.

[Pete Lavallee]

As the 29th and 1st poster to have actually played both courses, post renovation, I'll go on record as saying MPCC by a landslide! Torrey South definetly violates the Good Doctor's rule of a good course providing the maximum enjoyment to the greatest amount of players. Unless you derive your enjoment from being severely beaten about the head and shoulders, this course can only be enjoyed by a miniscule segment of elite players who hit it very long and very straight. It is very curious that without changing the routing, the par, or configuration of any of the holes, this course jumped so high so fast. All Rees did was add a few bunkers in the landing areas, flatten out the greens by building up their fronts, and add lots of new greenside bunkering. Granted by moving 3 greens, not more than 50 feet closer to the canyon edge, he did vastly improve these holes (3, 4,& 14). The new greens do provide more interest for elite players by forcing them to hit a specific third of the green, due to the very formulaic ridges wich divide every green into 3 different areas. But when you whip out 18 new greens in less than 2 months how great could they be? I can tell you from personal experience that course conditioning is not a factor; unlesss you played in the Buick, SCGA Am, or Junior Worlds.

I think the one thing the USGA loves the most about Torrey South is that it will maximize their profit potential by providing a venue that gives Tiger a 90% chance of winning the event. Were the record sales generated at Bethpage a function of it being a public venue, Tiger's success, or both? Considering his previous track record there, by lengthening the course they have made it all the easier for the world's best power player to succeed.

[THuckaby2]

Tiger, I'll be there, prepared to provide all humor, as I always do.

But explain to me how I am "sucking up."  Read the entire thread!  What I said here is that it's assumed the USGA wanted a SoCal public course... I never said that was good (hell if CA is gonna get another Open, for my money just make it Pebble again, of failing that, Olympic Club - screw SoCal!).  I just said that's the assumption, because it really appears to be true.

I have no inside knowledge of this, it's just based on what I heard and read.

Then I went on to say that given that is assumed, I ask:  seriously - what other SoCal public course would work better for the USOpen, taking all things into consideration?

I don't see any better SoCal public courses - in terms of their worth for hosting a USOpen, and all that entails.  I listed many SoCal public courses that I find just plain "better" from my perspective.  In fairness though, that was based on my multiple playings of pre-renovation TP-South.  I don't THINK my opinion would change based on the renovation, but until I play it I can't say for certain.  That seems fair.

Man if this is sucking up, then I cop to it.  I just would like to know to whom or what I am doing the sucking!

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Dennis, the USGA lurkers..., anyway I have a problem with a certain area getting an Open without a course that merits selection, when a whole 1/4 of the country does not get one because it is too hot.

[THuckaby2]

Tiger:

Read my recent post, read the assumption.  My issue assumes that area is going to get an Open and it is going to be on a public course.  I am really not commenting on the worth or fairness of this, and if I did I'd say this:  I think it's an OK idea, they want a West Coast Bethpage, and selfishly for me it is at least somewhat close to home... But believe me selfishly I want another up here before SoCal gets one, and in fairness the rest of the country does sure as hell deserve a shot.

Just taking this as a given anyway, again, what other SoCal public should get it?

TH

[Dennis_Harwood]

I have a problem with a certain area getting an Open without a course that merits selection, when a whole 1/4 of the country does not get one because it is too hot.

Tiger-- What do you think the criteria is to "merit selection" as an Open course?  

Why is there such a thing as a "deserving course"? What are the factors that establish "deserving"? If the players, public and USGA are statisfied with a venue why does any "course" have a right to believe they were "deserving", but an injustice was done because the course was not used as an Open venue?  

The USGA is a body which states its purpose is to "protect and improve" the game-- Part of that is conduct national championships and the Open has become an event which in current scope vastly exceeds what was imagined even several years ago--

I believe the USGA has generally done a good job of selecting venues upon which to conduct its Open championships, and it has always recognized that the courses it selects are to test the elite golfer, not necessarily a test for the occasional golfer-- I think Torrey very clearly meets that test--Why are we concerned that for a golfer with average skills the course may not be "as good as" somewhere else in the US that could never hold a US Open.

With the magnitude of the event, certain criteria must be met before a course can even be considered-- We have discussed that before and those criteria rule out a great number of highly regarded courses--

The USGA is not a group of private clubs and they believe (rightly so I think) that the event should often be held on a course which is accessible to the general public-- Further the USGA is a "United States" association which dictates that its most visable event be conducted in various geographical areas (weather permitting)--

 With the media market and population base it was almost required to establish an Open course in SoCal--a public course became a desirable additoinal criteria--

I repeat again, assuming SoCal is a location you must go to, and a public venue is desired, where else do you go to hold a US Open? And what is wrong with a course that may be, for many, a "one trick pony" (test the elite but not be much of a track for the average golfer)--

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger Bernhardt,

The decision not to hold a US OPEN in the deep south in Mid-June is a prudent one.  The same goes for the PGA in Mid-August.

It's a byproduct of the weather, nothing else.

You'll also notice that you won't see the Super Bowl in Green Bay, Cleveland or Buffalo in late January.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dennis,
So that is what Greatness is to you--growing thick rough grass and raising greensites eh? And that puts Torrey Pines South in the same category as Winged Foot, Oakmont, and Shinnecock? Dennis, please get a grip on reality! Where are you coming up with this stuff? Or did you just watch too much of Oak Hill last weekend and really liked the way they set-up that course?

I don't doubt you for one second that Torrey Pines put up a tough fight for the local SCGA Amateur--Now there is an earth shattering event. We are talking about the US Open.
 
The point is that the USGA should never have to compromise itself to have a US Open Championship anywhere at anytime. They did at Torrey Pines, and if you think they didn't, then your kidding yourself. Do you see them making special compromises for Merion? No, because they think that Torrey Pines is going to be an event just like Bethpage.

Do you actually think that there are as many golfers in San Diego County that are willing to spectate then participate? If you do, then you do not understand exactly who the San Diego demograph is, because they like the beach and activities, and they put up with the horse races--even attendance at Del Mar this season has plumetted, and there they have a chance to make money! They can't even fill a football stadium for their beloved Chargers, and the Padres are so worried they aren't going to get the crowds coming in to see the new stadium, they are planning on spending money on free agency in hopes that they can win so the fans will come.

Sure, people from out of town will attend, and they'll hate it too. because it will be Hell to get in the place, Hell to negotiate Interstate 5, Hell to move around La Jolla, Hell to get to Old Town, Hell to get to and from the airport too, and we aren't even talking about how much hotels are going to cost at that time either! How do I know this? Because try going down there right now and see how hard it is to get around on a normal weekend! I can assure you that this is a one time deal at Torrey Pines--one time and one time only!

You have a group in the USGA right now that seems to think that they are going to get the same embracing crowds as Bethpage--I will GUARANTEE that will not be the case, and the course, well it will still be the same boring golf course it always was, only with four more inches of rough and greens that are raised 4-5 feet with too many people on it.

So are we to assume that you would take Torrey Pines over MPCC?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, thank you for noting the weather aspect of site location. I have a problem when an area is eliminated from out national championship because of weather in the high 80's and 90's. Is there a rule against a golfer sweating a little. The USGA has no problem with us walking 36 a day in August to qualify for the US Am. Pinehurst is almost in the south. Southern Hills is not. Dennis noted the USGA's mission statement. I do not feel over exposure to the NY metro area and a complete void in an equally populated group of 9 states is for the good of the game. Exposure and having people see and feel the game and its championships is for the GOOD of the game. The USGA throws the midwest and west coast a bone fevery few years or so. We all know there is a difference between Socal and the Bay area. But not enough to make sure an Open is held there. I will grant Dennis this, that if one is to hold an Open on the Public course in Socal, then TRS is probably the best choice. However, when did this become the way to serve the game. The Open is on the west coast regularly and Pebble is a great choice and public too. Dennis is serving the local view well and I will not give him a hard time for the sake of a broader view to this all too common poor decision making by the USGA. I have stated on here for a while how I feel the USGA is not in touch with the game, not does it really have a vision on how to serve the best interest of the game. We can talk about the ball, drivers, course selection, Reesism, Tavern of the Green,the magazine or really how to bring the game to the public to ride the growth that Tiger set forth. We may already have missed that ship. Golf is bigger than the USGA. I am not saying it is a bad orgaonization, just that is not hitting the mark very often now. It is sorta bogieing through life.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger Bernhardt,

It's not about the golfers.

It's about the grass and turf and providing ideal playing conditions, firm and fast, not spongey greens that stimp at 6.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Tommy, my good friend, we need to discuss these subjects in greater depth after a too long delayed game and a good ale--

Couple of quick points-- I never said in my opinion Torrey was a better course than MPCC(but MPCC would never serve as an Open venue) and I never even hinted TP should be on the same page as Shinnecock, Wingfoot, etc.

What I did say was that it will get rave reviews when set up as an Open course, the players will love it and I can understand why raters of "some" publication, viewing it as a championship visa, may put it up in their rankings--Its a different course with that set-up(and before you knock the Am field I will wager some of those players will be on the same track in 2008 playing for the crown)--

I also agree with Tom. Given what the USGA wanted re a SoCal site there was no choice but TP(and I guess you agree since I've heard no dissent)--

You raise one other issue with which I do take vigorious objection-- When you raise issues which have become a part of conducting a modern Open, Torrey is a better site than any other recent venue, in my opinion--When you take into account those "necessities" that are now a part of conducting an Open, Torrey is at the top of any list--

It has the least transportation problems of almost any recent site I can think of with a freeway system with a 16 lane interchange within a long hike from the site-- The addtional traffic created by an Open event will not make a dent on the traffic pattern(contrary to Shinnecock--have you tried to get there from NYC or looked at their traffic problems?)

It is within minutes of thousands of top class hotel rooms in an area used to feeding, entertaining and housing hundreds of thousands of visitors each month--

It has tons and tons of parking right next door at the UCSD campus which will be out of session during the event--

It has lots of great locations for lots and lots of corporate tents and the corporations will love not only showing their clients golf but great restaurants, whales jumping--both at sea and in tanks--major league baseball, great beaches--this is an area with lots and lots of attractions--

Like a Super Bowl, an Open is an "Event" and TP is at the top of the list so far as venues go for hosting an "Event"--

Now, if you want to focus on the football field(errr, I mean course), I'm saying that Torrey when set up for an Open will come off just fine and rave reviews will be given by press, gallery and players-

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, read a little turf news or come visit and let me show you around. The south has 9 to 11 stimp all day and night and several strains of tip dwarf and tifeagle that make for great putting surfaces. They are certainly par to Poa any day. Ok Dennis, that was a little much. Lets get all these hotel rooms within 20 minutes of the course. Where is all that parking within easy walking distance. I am not out there that often and maybe the Del Mar track is only 5 or so miles away, but that is a hike. Who will not like the weather? I love it 365, so I am sure the players will enjoy a little socal sun with 75 degrees as a top.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Parking-- The University of California San Diego campus(20,000 students) is across the street--less than 1/2 mile at most from the 11th green-- Parking for at least 10,000 autos I believe and the last day of classes is the first week in June--

The huge glider Park --6-10 acres at least--adjoins the 12th fairway-- Del Mar and the fairgrounds, which is set up to accomadate parking for 45,000 for a horse race, is about 6 1/2 miles away--

[Pete Lavallee]

Only the privledged and the players are allowed to park at the Golf course for the Open as well as the Buick. The days of the general public being allowed to park at the glider port adjacent to the 12th hole are long gone. Patrons to the US Open will have to park at Sea World or the Del Mar Race track and be bused in, a 30 minute trip equivalent to the bus ride from Jones Beach to Bethpage State Park.

And Tommy, although my Padres can't seem to beat anyone else they seem to have no trouble with your Dodgers! You're more than welcome to drive down (the traffic clears once you leave LA) and fill one of those empty seats at our beautiful new Ballpark next year. I'll even treat you to dinner in Old Town; I'm sure they'll be able to squeeze us in. And my Chargers can whoop your; oh that right you can't seem to keep a football team in lala land.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pete,
My Football teams are exactly where they should be--South Bend and Oakland!:)

Dennis, Emphatically Yes! Ale and discussion is needed on this subject soon. And yes, the parking isn't going to be as bad as I made it out to be, but getting to the parking will!

Lets get together soon. I want to discuss other things also!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger Bernhardt,

Green speeds are only half the battle.

Greens that have to be syringed during the day to save them will prove to be dart boards for these fellow.

Keeping greens FIRM and FAST, to USGA OPEN standards during the summer in the deep south is no easy task.

Do you think some type of BIAS has existed over the last
108 years, or have there been prudent considerations.

2001   Southern Hills
1999   Pinehurst
1977   Southern Hills
1976   Atlanta AC
1969   Champions
1958   Southern Hills
1952   Northwood
1941   Colonial

What course would you recommend that the USGA host an OPEN in June in the DEEP south, or the PGA in August ??

[Don_Mahaffey]

Patrick,
I doubt the USGA will hold an Open on bermuda grass greens anytime soon. But, if they did, one thing I can absolutly guarantee you is they would not need syringing. I promise you that a good ultra dwarf bermuda could role 12 and be made hard as concrete if the rain stayed away. Bent may need a little syringe during hot periods, well cared for bermuda does not need to be cooled down during a hot day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Don Mahaffey,

Has it ever been demonstrated that those grasses/greens can sustain speeds of 12 on concrete greens over a period of
seven to ten days ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Torrey Pines is now a US Open site and Merion is not.

Ahhh...I get it.  It sort of speaks volumes about the current state of the USGA on multiple levels.  

[THuckaby2]

Pete,
My Football teams are exactly where they should be--South Bend and Oakland!:)

Do my eyes deceive me?  Is the Emperor a brother member of the Raider nation?  Well I'll be... add this to our beloved Dodgers and Tommy we have way more to agree on than to fight about.

Now if we can just rid you of this blind religious devotion to a school in the midwest to which you ought to have no real connection... oh well, I am patient.    

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, I have been a Raider fan since about 1974, when my cousin, a fellow Ram fanatic said he really liked watching the Raiders play and that they were his AFC team. It just so happened at the time that I had been watching a lot of the Raiders on TV also, and the next thing you know.........

Also, count me as one that thinks the Raiders should have never left Oakland in the first place and was relieved that the city got THEIR team back which they should have never lost.

Also, I like Al Davis, which should make a few scoff pretty loud. Yes, he is a dinosaur, and just recently, I got into a discussion with a law student that thinks he ripped off the City of Irwindale, and has been studying it as one of her thesis towards her degree. Her research was all screwed up!  I had to direct her to the proper resources! (I have an old family friend that is on the City of Irwindale city council who admits to me that the City signed an agreement claiming if they didn't produce the stadium, then Al was allowed to keep the $10,000,000. The city at first fretted over losing the money, but they are actually loaded, and got a much needed tax write-off because of it. At least that is what I was told.)