Torrey Pines over MPCC Dunes??

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Golf's debut of Torrey Pines at #67 becomes more stunning by the day, made even more amazing by the "architects" who would put it #57 in the US!?!?!?

Since Ran is refusing comment on this credibility killer of a selection , I pose this: isn't Monterey Peninsula CC Dunes (pre or post Reestoration), eons more interesting, thought provoking, beautiful and fun than Torrey Pines?

I know USGA staffers and rules officials make up nearly 10% of the Golf panel, and that Rees votes on his redo work, but would any of these people really chose to play Torrey South over MPCC Dunes?

[Evan_Green]

Geoff-

All you said is true, but if the pros played at MPCC Dunes the, winning score would be 30 under. Even if many on this forum dont care about that, it seems it matters in the magazine ratings.

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoff;

I understand that Rees improved TPS, but that pic of the 13th green looks like the worst type of overkill.  Still, I understand that the 14th is now a world-class hole, which is the type that Torrey always had the site for, but never the architecture.

Overall, I still can't understand how a hyper-inflated TPS at over 7,500 yards is all that much better than it was before, and the reports from some of the guys here have been less than flattering.  I'm curious as to the results regarding some of the best original greens, such as the 2nd, 8th, 9th, 15th, and 17th.  From what I've heard, Rees made them larger, but flatter.  

Are course panelists looking at other factors, like improved conditioning and "challenge"??  Surely any course that long would be markedly more difficult, but has that now become the mark of a "great" course?  

I'm left to wonder, especially after hearing today that Firestone South has been lengthened noticeably ( it alway was a 7000 plus, par 70 course), if modern notions of greatness aren't beginning to be tied to total acreage.  

How long before the first 8,000 yard course makes the rankings?

[DMoriarty]

I havent yet played post-renovation Torrey South, but I was very surprised to open up the magazine and see it at 67.  There are at least 10 courses in Southern California that I would rather play than Torrey South (with price and access no object.)  Most of those ten will never even come close to making any top 100 list.

[Dennis_Harwood]

After working a recent event there (Torrey) over 4 rounds in late June (the season the Open will be there) with the course set up at 7,400 yards (about 200 less than what they will play the US Open at), with long rough (but not as long as it will be at the Open), with narrow fairways (but not as long as it will be at the Open), with fast greens (but not as fast as the Open) and last day hole locations set up at likely final round Open positions---I could see what the course will play like --this even involved  top flight competition involving players who can drive the ball 320 yards and have the short game to match--

The course has been redone for an Open, and I could see the work done by Rees in reconfiguring the holes and creating championship shorts into the green complexes--

To a man the players raved about the course and I predict that the 2008 event will receive over the top reviews from press, public and players about what a great course selection Torrey was--

Now, when I tried to put my game to the test, a
lot (and I mean a lot) was lost in the translation given where I could not hit it to and given the kinds of shots my game mandated I hit into the green complexes-

But, the course has be redesigned for a major championship on a course over 7500 yards to be played with the modern game (drives over 300 yards) and corresponding approach shots--

[DMoriarty]

Dennis,

Did you work the SCGA Amateur?  I watched Moon qualify, he has quite a game.  Didn't he shoot a 65 for his 2nd or 3rd round?  

Does how the course plays at the at the US Open really have much bearing on the overall quality of the course?  Should it?  

I agree that the 2008 Open will likely recieve almost universal raves.  Do you think this is an indicator of the quality of the golf course?

[Brad Klein]

My bet is the selection of Torrey Pines has less to do with politics and more to do with math. With a rater group of only about 100, it is no simple matter for a course to garner as many as 10 votes. Many quality courses get overlooked and many marginal courses are favored by a mild bias or "tipping" of the polls. I suspect that many of the results of this Golf Magazine list have less to do with outright quality of the course and more to do with the numbers game regarding which courses got enough votes to qualify at all.

The small voting pool and the fact that 10 votes will qualify you for a rating means that any small bias is exaggerated in its effect. A small disposition in favor of one style or architect over another thus has a tremendous advantage. In other words, the rater pool is way too small.

[Tim_Weiman]

Geoff:

I'm only partly familar with MPCC Dunes course, so I'll avoid commenting on the comparison you are making. But, I will go even further to argue how silly the Golf selection of Torrey Pines as one of the Top 100.

Take away the brutal, death march pace of play issue and I'd prefer to play Los Verdes over Torrey Pines.

[Andy_Lipschultz]

Tim: I don't know; that Baatan Death March seems to overwhelm the entire experience, though as I recall there are some glorious holes on the back 9.

Dave: If SoCal includes Santa Barbara (and Lompoc) on down and east to Palm Springs, how many public (forget private) courses are superior to Torrey?

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

SoCal public courses I'd call superior to Torrey South, off the top of my head, moving north to south:

La Purisima
Sandpiper
Rustic Canyon
Lost Canyons - Sky
Brookside No. 1 (the longer one)
Both at Pelican Hill
Los Verdes (Tim's right on here - but unfortunately the death march pace ain't going away)
PGA West - Stadium
La Quinta Mountain
La Quinta Dunes
Barona Creek

There are probably a bunch I've missed, particularly in the desert.

It must be politics. The list of private courses that are DEFINITELY better than Torrey South is easily as long.

And Evan Green - you really think the big boys could get to 30 under on MPCC Dunes?  I did the NCGA course rating there and we sure have it rated high from the back tees - 73.7/135.  Add any wind at all to the mix and they'll have a tough time with the back nine...

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Brad made a great point on ratings math. However, it is hard to feel politics is not involved to a heavy extent. Most of the courses mentioned as better Socal courses are not in the top 300 much less top 100. I would and have enjoyed rounds at MPCC Dunes. I would rather play there anyday than Torrey Pines South. Torrey does have a great setting by the sea. A Louisiana guy like me would play there over some better Socal courses just to play seaside golf. There are some very good holes. Yes, Dennis it is now set up for tour players length wise. Anybody can grow rough and narrow fairways. I feel Rees did a poor job on the fairway bunkers and the green complexes are really average. And, at the end of the day, it is obvious TPS does not belong in the company of America's great courses.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, Lets not forget that the GOLF ranking is in the WORLD Top 100!

I opened the magazine and just glanced at it yesterday, then immeidately closed it when I saw it in the World Top 100. I find more architectural interest at Los Verdes, Bataan Death March 6 hour round and all, instead of Torrey-South. Also, I would rate Sandpiper ahead of Torrey South, both pre and post remodel.

[Dennis_Harwood]

Tom-- I've played all those. I'll give you Purisima and Rustic for everyday play-- I'll let you debate me on Barona, but the others are not even in the same ball park-- Good Lord, La Quinta, PGA, Pelican?? You can not be serious--Have you played Torrey since the redo?? If not, please wait until you play it--

And, for an Open set up, they others just can not be considered candidates--which is the thrust of my post--

DMoriarty-- Yes it was the SCGA-- A very strong field-- The last I looked about 8 of the players in the event made the US Am match play (and Roy Moon did not qualify for the event at the qualifier I also worked)--Nico Bollini of USC was 10 under for the first two rounds, Moon shot 65 in the third but still trailed by 3, however he caught Nico in the last round--

The remarkable thing was that only 1 mid am player finished in the top 15-- All the rest were college players-- And I was amazed by their length--with control--

In marking the course right before the event I decided to save a little red paint on the WH to the left (the hole where Phil hit it in the trash a few years ago in the Buick), so marked the hazard only in the hitting area based on my experience at the Buick-- So I marked from about 225 to 300 off the tee-- When the first group hit their tee shots from 320 to 330 I quickly realized I had missed the hitting area--

My post dealt with US Open set up-- I'm not sure that it should be the criteria, but it does enhance reputation, and, as I stated, the course will set up great for an Open--

At 7,600 yards it will be a great track for the "modern game"-- Its just when its scaled back to under 7,000 for the "average" player something is lost in the translation.

Should a course that is great for the Tour level player, but looses its charm at an average length be considered a "great"(ie top 100 course)?

I'm not sure, but make no mistake that many of the top 100 have built their reputation based on the "tour level" events being held their, rather than what the "average golfer" experiences--

[Paul Richards]

Geoff, I've played Torrey Pines about 20 times, although each time was previous to the recent renovation.  Based on what I've seen, it is no contest.  MPCC is a much better golf course.  

That being said, I look forward to returning to TP and seeing the work that has been done to it.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Dennis, I walked the course and looked at it from all distances for the reason you mention. How can a course lose something between 7500 and 7000. That would be less than the difference between my drives and a tour player on the 14 driving holes. The fairway traps are set up in the landing areas. Sadly enough often just across the fairway from each other adding minimal strategy to the hole. It is the green complexes as much as any other feature which make this a non top 100 course. They are so very average with only 4 or 5 really fitting the hole and contributing to it in a positive way. It may be the best tour course in this part of Socal but what does that have to do with top 100 or a comparison to MPCC. Heck the tour plays at a lot of very average courses. We have the New Orleans stop at English Turn, a Jack N course that is not really worth discussing either in this context. I love San diego but that does not mean they need to hold an Open there on an average course. I will say this. I was fortunate to meet the man who owns the Lodge at Torrey Pines after walking the course and he heard me going on about what a poor job Rees had done. I toured the hotel with him and the attention to detail and how the hotel was totally in touch with the environment of that part of Socal was just awesome. I am proud to say he did a much better job with his hotel on a good but not great piece of land than Rees did on the course on a great piece of land.

[THuckaby2]

Dennis:

I likely did go off the deep end with some of those - mea culpa.  I have NOT played TP-South since the re-do - I've only seen lots of pics and saw it on TV.  I did play it many, many times before.  So the re-do looks cool, and I guess I ought to give it the benefit of the doubt... It just didn't look so wholly changed as to change my opinion of the course from before.  So ok, in my mind the courses I list are all better than the PRE-redo TP-South.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the post-redo makes it surpass the ones you list.  And I sure do want to play it myself anyway.. maybe some day....

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom and Dennis,
Tom, You had him on the ropes and you let him go--shame on you! I was agreeing with your list fully! You did not go off the deep end!

Dennis, I will debate Barona  vs. TP with you anytime. I'll even stick up for Pelican Hill-North Links or whatever they are calling it this week, and I think you know how I feel about that place too. PGA West I'll give you since it isn't everybody's cup of tea, but you and I have gone around this one before. Torrey Pines better then La Quinta Mountain? I don't know about that one either. Even after the unwise softening of this once great track, its a better golf course then Torrey could ever be.  I'll pit Shady Canyon to it anyday!

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

I just couldn't in good conscience go for the knockout (like I just scored against Mucci on that "Upset" thread), because I have not played the post-renovation TP-South.

I am so ethical.  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ethics or not, Tom, you and both know better that Torrey Pines is anything but a US Open quality venue, let alone a World Top 100. To put it in any class other then a site for the Andy Williams/Buick whatever is either a gret big stretch or a the work of a governing body that doesn't have a clue.

Whoops! did I just write that outloud?

[THuckaby2]

No hassles, Tommy.  All I know is that when I lived in San Diego and played TP a lot, it was the reverse of what happens at a truly great course - that is, the more I played it, the less I liked it.

Post-renovation, who knows, maybe that changes.

As for a USOpen site, well... they wanted a SoCal public course... what truly would have worked better, considering all the logistics also?  I can't see any of the ones I listed as superior making for a better US Open site...

But that doesn't matter to me anyway, because USOpen site absolute does NOT mean "great."

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I don't know, I guess I have trouble putting Torrey in a class with Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Oakmont, Oakland Hills and every other tough US Open course I haven't mentioned. (Put Pinehurst #2 in there also.) Maybe Dennis can accept it, but I never will be able to, just so it can be held in a locale. It all tends to make me relive the PGA Championship at Sahalee over and over.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:

Of course TP-South is not in a class with those you mention.

But just accept the assumption that the USGA wanted a SoCal public course, to try and duplicate the success achieved at Bethpage.  I can buy that as a worthwhile thing to do.

So where are you gonna put it?

I can't think of a better place than TP-South, factoring in all that a USOpen needs....

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Olympic Club

[THuckaby2]

That's cheating, Tommy.  Of course I agree and would love to see it there again.

But you must accept the assumption that it was gonna be at a SoCal public course.  That wasn't going to change, and in the end didn't change...

So under that assumption, where else would it go?

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

I havent yet played post-renovation Torrey South, but I was very surprised to open up the magazine and see it at 67.

There are at least 10 courses in Southern California that I would rather play than Torrey South (with price and access no object.)  Most of those ten will never even come close to making any top 100 list.

How can you make that statement if you've never played the renovated golf course ?

By what basis do you compare those ten courses to a course you've never seen ??

Inquiring minds want to know  

Who originally designed MPCC, both courses ?
Who redesigned MPCC both courses ?