So much ignorance about Pinehurst conditions

[Greg Tallman]

jkava,

   where is this mud you claim?  I haven't seen a mud ball. 

Mud gets on your ball on soft courses. Every golfer hates that.

Actually I think you are wrong, many are so ignorant that they believe it is a sign of having "perfect turf".

[Brent Hutto]

Is brown fescue OK at high end clubs and resorts?

I don't know. I've only ever played two high-end resort courses and neither of them had brown fescue grass. One of them was green as could be, the other is green or brown depending on the season but it's Paspalum.

The expensive courses I play tend to be in England or Scotland but not resorts. And they are more often brown than green, in the main.

Maybe someone who has been to Bandon (often brown I assume?) could answer better.

[Jud_T]

The issue is not with places like Bandon, that have been down with brown since the get go.  Guys go to Bandon to get a links golf experience without having to pack a passport and deal with severe jet lag, warm beer and a crap exchange rate. The question is will the marketing of places like the Greenbriar, French Lick or the American Club withstand a different aesthetic at their price point.

[Don Mahaffey]

Is brown fescue OK at high end clubs and resorts?

I don't know. I've only ever played two high-end resort courses and neither of them had brown fescue grass. One of them was green as could be, the other is green or brown depending on the season but it's Paspalum.

The expensive courses I play tend to be in England or Scotland but not resorts. And they are more often brown than green, in the main.

Maybe someone who has been to Bandon (often brown I assume?) could answer better.

I'm asking you because I am curious why brown bermuda = bad, but brown fescue is OK since you mention playing brown courses in the UK. Why?
Serious question and I'm not baiting or picking a fight, just very curious.
An American couple I played TOC with (three weeks prior to the Open) thought the course was in bad shape, too brown, too thin, not enough grass. I thought it was great and I also thought their notions about what is right was preventing them from enjoying the game in a new way.

[Don Mahaffey]

The issue is not with places like Bandon, that have been down with brown since the get go.  Guys go to Bandon to get a links golf experience without having to pack a passport and deal with severe jet lag and warm beer.  The question is will the marketing of places like the Greenbriar, French Lick or the American Club withstand a different aesthetic at their price point.

I have read many comments about P2 along the lines of, if I'm paying that fee the grass better be green.

Reminds me of a guy who goes to a pricy world class restaurant and cares more about the portion size than the quality of the food.

[Andrew Buck]

I have played courses which look more green and "manicured" than the US Open setup at #2 while still having a very keen "ground game" and "strategy" on offer.

We all have, but the big difference is almost all of those are in temperate climates and on cool season turf. To get bermuda to play fast, to be "puttable" from 10 yards off the green, you simply can not be concerned with color or appearance as to get it truly fast it will turn mottled and have all sorts of shades, but the turf will be very, very playable, just as it was at P2. Color has zero to do with playability, and not as much to do with plant health as some here will have you believe.

And this is one of my biggest issues with the whole discussion, and the way the USGA is selling it.  

We need to sell firm over appearance, but not all locations is brown best either.  If you take a northern course with Rye grass fairways and feel brown is needed, you're also likely on the wrong path.  In some locations water is an issue, in others it isn't.  I've talked with lots of members about Pinehurst, and there are mixed reviews, but a brown isn't the "ONLY" solution either.  

[John Kavanaugh]

French Lick plays firm and fast.  You have to give them a break during rainy season but the resort "gets it".  The Dye course at French Lick gets so little play and has such a juicy budget that they can afford the firm and green that we all really love.

[Thomas Dai]

An aside - did they use 'paint' anywhere on the P2 course at either of the two just past Opens? Just curious to know.
atb

[Brent Hutto]

I have read many comments about P2 along the lines of, if I'm paying that fee the grass better be green.

Reminds me of a guy who goes to a pricy world class restaurant and cares more about the portion size than the quality of the food.

I can't for the life of me seem to communicate the simplest of ideas with you Don. Frankly, I suspect it's you and not me but who knows...

1) I'm fine with brown Bermuda, if the course is otherwise in good playing condition. That said, in my neck of the woods there's no such as thing as a course that is brown but otherwise in good playing condition. So it's a purely hypothetical question.

2) I much prefer playing on cool climate, sand-based turf to any other playing surface. As such, I carefully marshal my limited travel golf funds for use on trips to play links and heathland courses in England and Scotland. So I almost never play high-$$$ courses with Bermuda grass.

So if the question is whether I myself, personally, would complain about the color of the #2 course were I playing there the answer is no. If it's as playable as it seems to be on TV I'd be happy as could be playing there.

I also know full well that of all the people in the world willing to pay $400+ to play golf on a resort course, the proportion of them sharing my own preferences is near zero. So we're back to the earlier threads. If I, myself, personally want to blow $400 per round on golf I'll do it where the weather is cool and the grass isn't Bermuda. And if anyone I know of outside this forum wants to pay $400 per round to play golf at Pinehurst they are going to bitch incessantly about the appearance of the course no matter how fine its playability might be.

[Andrew Buck]

French Lick plays firm and fast.  You have to give them a break during rainy season but the resort "gets it".  The Dye course at French Lick gets so little play and has such a juicy budget that they can afford the firm and green that we all really love.

I've wondered about that.  Is the Dye course basically a perk for the high rollers in a similar manner to Shadow Creek? 

Normally when I vacation, I will spend the extra money to play the best course most often (for example, at Kapalua I played the plantation every day after one round on the other course).  That said, the Ross course is so good, I think I'd have a hard time justifying paying 3X to play the Dye course more than once, if at all.  It doesn't make logical sense the rates are so high from a golf point, IMO, so I was wondering if they simply want it empty for their best gamblers.

[John Kavanaugh]

French Lick plays firm and fast.  You have to give them a break during rainy season but the resort "gets it".  The Dye course at French Lick gets so little play and has such a juicy budget that they can afford the firm and green that we all really love.

I've wondered about that.  Is the Dye course basically a perk for the high rollers in a similar manner to Shadow Creek? 

Normally when I vacation, I will spend the extra money to play the best course most often (for example, at Kapalua I played the plantation every day after one round on the other course).  That said, the Ross course is so good, I think I'd have a hard time justifying paying 3X to play the Dye course more than once, if at all.  It doesn't make logical sense the rates are so high from a golf point, IMO, so I was wondering if they simply want it empty for their best gamblers.

That is true.  It also serves as a tournament venue that brings publicity and gamblers to the resort.  I honestly believe that it was as much a gift to the people of Indiana and a tribute to Pete Dye rather than a gambling loss leader.

[Andrew Buck]

French Lick plays firm and fast.  You have to give them a break during rainy season but the resort "gets it".  The Dye course at French Lick gets so little play and has such a juicy budget that they can afford the firm and green that we all really love.

I've wondered about that.  Is the Dye course basically a perk for the high rollers in a similar manner to Shadow Creek? 

Normally when I vacation, I will spend the extra money to play the best course most often (for example, at Kapalua I played the plantation every day after one round on the other course).  That said, the Ross course is so good, I think I'd have a hard time justifying paying 3X to play the Dye course more than once, if at all.  It doesn't make logical sense the rates are so high from a golf point, IMO, so I was wondering if they simply want it empty for their best gamblers.

That is true.  It also serves as a tournament venue that brings publicity and gamblers to the resort.  I honestly believe that it was as much a gift to the people of Indiana and a tribute to Pete Dye rather than a gambling loss leader.

A gift to the people of Indiana?  Is there an in-state rate, because if the idea was a gift, I would think they'd rather charge $150'ish and give more people an option to experience it (at a rate that would still likely be the highest in the state).

[Don Mahaffey]

I have read many comments about P2 along the lines of, if I'm paying that fee the grass better be green.

Reminds me of a guy who goes to a pricy world class restaurant and cares more about the portion size than the quality of the food.

I can't for the life of me seem to communicate the simplest of ideas with you Don. Frankly, I suspect it's you and not me but who knows...

1) I'm fine with brown Bermuda, if the course is otherwise in good playing condition. That said, in my neck of the woods there's no such as thing as a course that is brown but otherwise in good playing condition. So it's a purely hypothetical question.

2) I much prefer playing on cool climate, sand-based turf to any other playing surface. As such, I carefully marshal my limited travel golf funds for use on trips to play links and heathland courses in England and Scotland. So I almost never play high-$$$ courses with Bermuda grass.

So if the question is whether I myself, personally, would complain about the color of the #2 course were I playing there the answer is no. If it's as playable as it seems to be on TV I'd be happy as could be playing there.

I also know full well that of all the people in the world willing to pay $400+ to play golf on a resort course, the proportion of them sharing my own preferences is near zero. So we're back to the earlier threads. If I, myself, personally want to blow $400 per round on golf I'll do it where the weather is cool and the grass isn't Bermuda. And if anyone I know of outside this forum wants to pay $400 per round to play golf at Pinehurst they are going to bitch incessantly about the appearance of the course no matter how fine its playability might be.

The reason I have trouble following you is you continue to go about how bad P2 looks, but then say you'd have no problem playing it. So, I guess you are not really talking about your personal preferences, but taking on the role of the majority as you see it?
And to be completely frank, I hate that crap. And it is all too common in golf, especially among the golf "experts." They say, "oh, I like it and I get it, but you know the vast majority will never get it". As if they see it as their job to keep everyone straight. We heard the same thing about Bandon for years. Try getting a mid day tee time during the summer at Bandon. Whenever I've been there during the warmer months the place has been packed full of all those people paying $200+ who don't get it. Last time I was at P2, it was packed. Couldn't get a tee time with three other industry folks until late in the day on a Tuesday. Lots of people paying good money to play there who aren't complaining about brown grass along the edges.
So that is why you confuse me as you have gone on and on about the negatives of P2 but always manage to mix in a little "I have no problem with it and would have fun playing there". That seems awful darn contradictory. You either like it or you don't. If you don't, no problem as it is a big world. But if you do, why try and be the voice for those you think don't like it?

The other part of your message is also one I hear often and it really confuses me. And that is, I'll travel to play brown, but don't want brown at home. That is not directed as a negative to you as it seems oh so common. I need someone to explain that to me. Brown in Scotland or Bandon, or Long Island = good. Brown at my home course = bad. 

Firm fast golf comes in all colors and all different grass types. Some are better then others and some grasses hold their color better than others, but good golf is good golf and I can't for the life of me understand why people don't want it at home.

[Andrew Buck]

Firm fast golf comes in all colors and all different grass types. Some are better then others and some grasses hold their color better than others, but good golf is good golf and I can't for the life of me understand why people don't want it at home.

I'll speak for myself only.  Let the greens get as brown as you'd like, but everytime I've played on brown rye or bluegrass, it's been dead and/or clumpy/mud where lies are bad.  Maybe I just need to see those grasses play well brown first. 

[Brent Hutto]

No, Don. I am still not getting through. One more try then I give up...

I don't travel to play on Bermuda grass. Brown, green, red, black, white isn't the point. I prefer cool weather and I prefer cool climate grasses so that's where I go when I travel. I can play on Bermuda and swelter in the heat at home for free.

I don't mind playing on brown grass (although I really do enjoy the visuals of green grass). What I strongly prefer is tight, firm turf where the ball runs and some amount of ground game is possible. If that's brown in color or green in color I like it all the same.

Nobody outside this group that I ever, ever play golf with will tolerate brown grass and hardpan lies on a $400 resort course. Not a soul. Nobody. Nada, zilch. Not saying it's good or bad, just saying that is the clearly expressed preference of every single golfer I know. Outside of this forum.

I do not think you and I are any smarter, better, morally superior, well educated or have any other form of superiority over those who strongly prefer green grass to brown grass and hardpan. We simply have a preference that most golfers do not share.

And you lot banging on about how this two weeks of #2 on television is going to change the entire world of golf are (I am sorry to say) completely living in Cloud Cuckoo Land when it comes to that belief. At least 90% of golfer (more like 99% probably) detested the visual presentation of that course and would not ever pay to have it recreated in whole or in part at the courses they play. WHETHER YOU AND I LIKED IT OR NOT.

That's as clearly as I can state it. Again. If you want to keep shouting into your echo chamber, do it without me.

[Brent Hutto]

Firm fast golf comes in all colors and all different grass types. Some are better then others and some grasses hold their color better than others, but good golf is good golf and I can't for the life of me understand why people don't want it at home.

I'll speak for myself only.  Let the greens get as brown as you'd like, but everytime I've played on brown rye or bluegrass, it's been dead and/or clumpy/mud where lies are bad.  Maybe I just need to see those grasses play well brown first. 

It's not just you. That's what I've been saying all along. On links courses I have played on some AMAZING brown turf that was smooth and solid and perfectly maintained for golf. Back home on Bermuda grass I have not seen a single baked-out brown course (talking about in-season, not dormant winter Bermuda) that didn't offer cuppy lies and crap bounces.

[Don Mahaffey]

Firm fast golf comes in all colors and all different grass types. Some are better then others and some grasses hold their color better than others, but good golf is good golf and I can't for the life of me understand why people don't want it at home.

I'll speak for myself only.  Let the greens get as brown as you'd like, but everytime I've played on brown rye or bluegrass, it's been dead and/or clumpy/mud where lies are bad.  Maybe I just need to see those grasses play well brown first. 

Andrew, there are certainly shades of brown, and sometimes brown is dead!  With many of the cool season varieties, I think it is more about off color then it is totally brown.

[Don Mahaffey]

No, Don. I am still not getting through. One more try then I give up...

I don't travel to play on Bermuda grass. Brown, green, red, black, white isn't the point. I prefer cool weather and I prefer cool climate grasses so that's where I go when I travel. I can play on Bermuda and swelter in the heat at home for free.

I don't mind playing on brown grass (although I really do enjoy the visuals of green grass). What I strongly prefer is tight, firm turf where the ball runs and some amount of ground game is possible. If that's brown in color or green in color I like it all the same.

Nobody outside this group that I ever, ever play golf with will tolerate brown grass and hardpan lies on a $400 resort course. Not a soul. Nobody. Nada, zilch. Not saying it's good or bad, just saying that is the clearly expressed preference of every single golfer I know. Outside of this forum.

I do not think you and I are any smarter, better, morally superior, well educated or have any other form of superiority over those who strongly prefer green grass to brown grass and hardpan. We simply have a preference that most golfers do not share.

And you lot banging on about how this two weeks of #2 on television is going to change the entire world of golf are (I am sorry to say) completely living in Cloud Cuckoo Land when it comes to that belief. At least 90% of golfer (more like 99% probably) detested the visual presentation of that course and would not ever pay to have it recreated in whole or in part at the courses they play. WHETHER YOU AND I LIKED IT OR NOT.

That's as clearly as I can state it. Again. If you want to keep shouting into your echo chamber, do it without me.

Please show me the quote where I said this two weeks is going to change the world of golf.

What I did say is we will talk about it, that we need to talk about it, and we have and will continue as there are many in golf who have embraced what they saw. That is a plus, and I certainly never expected more then that or total acceptance. I've been around the game and the people who play it for a long time now and I know better then to think any one idea or style will be adopted by all. For now I'll just be happy that we are having the conversation.

You certainly don't think the tee sheets at Bandon or P2 are only filled with members of this DG? Where are those golfers coming from? They are obviously not the ones you hang out with, but I think they are more then 1% of golfers.

[Mike_Young]

Don,
Ya'll got me all confused now.
After listening to your last post, I had been thinking I liked the PH2 setup but at the same time was not sure it worked so I don't know if that means I like it or not    I keep asking myself what it is that makes me say I like it and yet don't know if it will work.  The best I can come up with is that it seems to me the fairway watering concept and look are exceptional but at the same time I feel the rough areas look very good but are "manipulated" for that area of the country and more effort is spent on the roughs than on the fairways.   I guess for my taste, I would like to see the wire grass go away and the common bermuda that is under the sand in those sandy areas be allowed to take over w/o being watered and see what that look would bring.   This is not a slap at the supt or the archies or anyone.  It's just my personal preference. JMO

[Lou_Duran]

Based on what I've heard from a variety of sources, if #2 represents the USGA's vision for the future of golf, there is going to be considerable push back.  One rather influential member of a top 100 course which has held majors writes "I have come to call that the Emperor's (wears no)clothes."  Unfortunately, I don't think TV did the course justice.  I enjoyed the maintenance meld I saw in October, but it looked a lot better than what I saw on TV.

[John Kavanaugh]

Based on what I've heard from a variety of sources, if #2 represents the USGA's vision for the future of golf, there is going to be considerable push back.  One rather influential member of a top 100 course which has held majors writes "I have come to call that the Emperor's (wears no)clothes."  Unfortunately, I don't think TV did the course justice.  I enjoyed the maintenance meld I saw in October, but it looked a lot better than what I saw on TV.

With the inclusion of the native areas they have added a minimum 30 minutes to every round.  Every course where I am a member has been cutting back or thinning native areas to speed up play and lower scores.  Pinehurst is already almost impossible given the greens, now adding lost balls, unplayable lies and provisionals from the tee it is anything but while we're young.  It's pay, stay or go away.

[Mark Fedeli]

You certainly don't think the tee sheets at Bandon or P2 are only filled with members of this DG? Where are those golfers coming from? They are obviously not the ones you hang out with, but I think they are more then 1% of golfers.

I think this is an interesting question, Don. If not us, who exactly are the people filling the tee sheets at Bandon?

I don't think it's snobbish to suggest that a great deal of the non-architecture fans at Bandon are there not for the wonderful playability or the homage to CBM, but for the atmosphere and the scenery. Put Bandon in Nebraska and I'd be shocked if rounds didn't plummet solely because there was no ocean to look at. But, put courses at Bandon that are lesser from an architectural standpoint, and I wonder if rounds drop in any significant number?

[Joe_Tucholski]

An aside - did they use 'paint' anywhere on the P2 course at either of the two just past Opens? Just curious to know.
atb

Thomas thanks for asking this question, not sure why no one wants to discuss the topic of artificial pigmentation.

When I've encountered someone who says the course looks dead I've assured them it wasn't and asked if they would have preferred the course a uniform painted green.  Everyone I've had the conversation with responds by saying they don't want it painted (acting like it would be absurd).  That being said I'm pretty sure they would like it if the course was painted and they were unaware of the action (kind of like how many people like the airbrushed models in magazines more than reality).

I'm not aware of paint being used during the opens.  That being said they did paint the fairways at #2 during the winter when the grass is all dormant (they also stopped overseeding some of the other courses - to the chagrin of some locals).  I have to believe the topic of paint came up at least once but as many interviews have stated Mike Davis and the USGA wanted it brown.  If they had decided to paint the fairways this discussion would not be occurring.  I have to believe the USGA is glad the discussion is occurring.

[Mike_Young]

Joe,
You bring up a good point with the "USGA" wanting it brown.  IMHO I don't think any of our problems will be solved by the USGA anymore than problems would be solved through the Automobile industry via the Auto Union.   Other than a large putting green do they have an actual golf course anywhere?  It's time owners and clubs decided where the game was going and not some association.  JMO

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Just in case you're looking for a fight which just isn't there, please see my previous comment.

Paul,

I understood your comment and reinforced it.
Either your reading comprehension skills are waning or you've decided to include yourself in the moron category.

For the benefit of your failing eyesight, I've highlighted part of it.

Thanks, I had my nurse read it for me and it matches up with what I read.

When all they've seen on TV for years is lush green fairways, accentuated by white sand bunkers and blue/green water, they begin to believe that that's how a golf course should look.  Most don't have a contrary or conflicting experience that would counter that look or cause them to question the quality of the playing surfaces.

I can't begin to tell you how many courses lost their greens in an attempt to replicate PGA Tour conditions for their member-guests or special tournament.

It's time to focus on the quality of the playing surfaces, not how the course looks on HD TV.

......Just because it's new to American golfers under a certain age does not mean the evidence isn't already out there at golf courses around the planet. John can bang on all he likes about longer rounds and hackers struggling but 200+ years of evidence proves him wrong......