Monostands on PH2 type of courses

[Mike_Young]

If there is an effort to show how courses can be "backed off" like the presentation PH2 with waste areas or rough or whatever one chooses to call the sandy areas is it that critical that the fairways be a single type of grass.  Why not go a step further and mow a a chosen height and play from which ever grasses survive at that height of cut.  Much money is spent trying to maintain a monostand of grass in modern courses and fairways but with fairway heights today, I'm sure one could play form whatever grass was in place. 

[Grant Saunders]

As long as the species are relatively complementary then I totally agree. They need to have fairly similar growth patterns such as speed and timing in and out of dormancy though.

We have browntop/fecue fairways that some misguided dumbass decided to undersow ryegrass into about a decade ago. Our mowing regime is almost totally dictated by the growth of the rye and the difficulty of cutting it requires extra time sharpening the mower especially in spring. Slowly we are working at reducing or even eradicating the rye but any time you spray such a large area of your course it pays to be cautious with rates as 10 hectares of dead grass tends to piss members off.

I anticipate approximately a 1/3 reduction in mowing once the rye is gone.

[Anthony_Nysse]

If there is an effort to show how courses can be "backed off" like the presentation PH2 with waste areas or rough or whatever one chooses to call the sandy areas is it that critical that the fairways be a single type of grass.  Why not go a step further and mow a a chosen height and play from which ever grasses survive at that height of cut.  Much money is spent trying to maintain a monostand of grass in modern courses and fairways but with fairway heights today, I'm sure one could play form whatever grass was in place. 

What do you think they are at PH? I'm sure they're 419 bermuda and/or common. That's about as mono stand as you can get. Most courses down here are wall to wall 419. Easy to shift mow lines, much different that northern courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

In cool season grass regions regardless of what you start with you will end up with a mixed sward in most places. Why waste the money on the lost cause of trying to keep a mono stand. Just let that grow that comes.

Jon

[Josh Stevens]

Surely you only need a second variety if the winters are grim and  couch goes dormant. Pinehurst isnt that cold is it?

[Jon Wiggett]

Josh,

their are lots of dangers involved in monocultures including supposed freak climate events, disease, insect damage.... but in the end the main reason is that you very rarely if ever see a mono culture occur in nature and nature will always win out in the long term

[BCrosby]

MikeY -

If you back off 419, what other kinds of turf would show up in fw's in the SE? Bermuda is so damn aggressive, what types of turf would successfully compete (beyond other types of Bermuda)?

On a related topic, a hidden cost of the P2 set-up is the regular removal of Bermuda as it tries to take back the "sandscapes". I would guess that maintenance would need to be performed on a regular basis. No?

Bob

[Anthony_Nysse]

MikeY -

If you back off 419, what other kinds of turf would show up in fw's in the SE? Bermuda is so damn aggressive, what types of turf would successfully compete (beyond other types of Bermuda)?

On a related topic, a hidden cost of the P2 set-up is the regular removal of Bermuda as it tries to take back the "sandscapes". I would guess that maintenance would need to be performed on a regular basis. No?

Bob

More bermuda. In many cases, when 419 gets weak, common bermudagrass can return.  Part of thing single role irrigation thinking to to not water the edges, this suppressing the aggressive bermudagrass growth. I'm sure they still have to chemically or mechanically remove at some point throughout the year.

[Mike_Young]

If there is an effort to show how courses can be "backed off" like the presentation PH2 with waste areas or rough or whatever one chooses to call the sandy areas is it that critical that the fairways be a single type of grass.  Why not go a step further and mow a a chosen height and play from which ever grasses survive at that height of cut.  Much money is spent trying to maintain a monostand of grass in modern courses and fairways but with fairway heights today, I'm sure one could play form whatever grass was in place. 

What do you think they are at PH? I'm sure they're 419 bermuda and/or common. That's about as mono stand as you can get. Most courses down here are wall to wall 419. Easy to shift mow lines, much different that northern courses.

Tony,
I wasn't saying to keep a monostand but to let it go. 

I always considered a mix of 419 and common to not be a monostand.  Is that a correct assumption or not? ( I don't know)  .

..IMHO one of the worst things to evolve with 419 and other hybrids was to fertilize and grow it in the rough as we would a fairway.  It makes a 2014  2"HOC of 419 a totally different thing than a 1980  2"HOC on a common bermuda rough.  I'm saying there has to be tons of common bermuda just lying in wait directly under the sand layer of those waste/rough areas and one good rain and it would show.  So it has to be sprayed during the year.  But in the fairways and edges a course could just plant 419 and let the two grasses just merge. Allow  the HOC determine which works and if other grasses mutate or merge into the mix so be it.  In other words, why go to a totally "whatever grows" rough and then single row the fairways and try to maintain one type of grass instead of just maintaining "whatever grows" there also?

[Anthony_Nysse]

If there is an effort to show how courses can be "backed off" like the presentation PH2 with waste areas or rough or whatever one chooses to call the sandy areas is it that critical that the fairways be a single type of grass.  Why not go a step further and mow a a chosen height and play from which ever grasses survive at that height of cut.  Much money is spent trying to maintain a monostand of grass in modern courses and fairways but with fairway heights today, I'm sure one could play form whatever grass was in place. 

What do you think they are at PH? I'm sure they're 419 bermuda and/or common. That's about as mono stand as you can get. Most courses down here are wall to wall 419. Easy to shift mow lines, much different that northern courses.

Tony,
I wasn't saying to keep a monostand but to let it go. 

I always considered a mix of 419 and common to not be a monostand.  Is that a correct assumption or not? ( I don't know)  .

..IMHO one of the worst things to evolve with 419 and other hybrids was to fertilize and grow it in the rough as we would a fairway.  It makes a 2014  2"HOC of 419 a totally different thing than a 1980  2"HOC on a common bermuda rough.  I'm saying there has to be tons of common bermuda just lying in wait directly under the sand layer of those waste/rough areas and one good rain and it would show.  So it has to be sprayed during the year.  But in the fairways and edges a course could just plant 419 and let the two grasses just merge. Allow  the HOC determine which works and if other grasses mutate or merge into the mix so be it.  In other words, why go to a totally "whatever grows" rough and then single row the fairways and try to maintain one type of grass instead of just maintaining "whatever grows" there also?

I would have to think that, because of the age of PH, common bermudagrass was all over #2 at one time. Possible to think that 419 was introduced at one time during their renovation periods, but I would guess, the common crept back and our preformed. It happened here at Pine Tree...twice.
  Unless a MORE aggressive grass is installed, common will always win and show up to the party. That's the great thing about Celebration and the no till method. It out competes Common.

Common is the souths poa. It's will always be found in the soil, every time it's turned up and exposed.

[Mike_Young]

Tony,
I guess that's what I'm asking.  Wouldn't a true "back to nature" ideal at PH2 involve common?  And don't you think much of the concern with the edges becoming "heavy" if there was more water are brought on by using hybrids such as 419?  Just asking....

[Ken Moum]

I've played most of my golf in the last 55 years or so on underfunded courses in either cool-season or transition zone areas.

All of them basically used the method you describe.  Where I currently play the fairways are a mixture of perennial rye, zoysia, common Bermuda, dirt, goose grass and a little crabgrass.

K

[Patrick_Mucci]

If there is an effort to show how courses can be "backed off" like the presentation PH2 with waste areas or rough or whatever one chooses to call the sandy areas is it that critical that the fairways be a single type of grass.  Why not go a step further and mow a a chosen height and play from which ever grasses survive at that height of cut.  Much money is spent trying to maintain a monostand of grass in modern courses and fairways but with fairway heights today, I'm sure one could play form whatever grass was in place. 

Mike,

That's a question that I've wrestled with for decades.

The answer seems to be "cost" to maintain in terms of consistency.

That different grasses have to be treated differently to insure their health.

If that's true, monostand would seem to be the way to go.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Up here in the Rockies we have bluegrass fairways.  And by that I mean bluegrass/rye/poa/bent.  Plays great.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MikeY -

If you back off 419, what other kinds of turf would show up in fw's in the SE? Bermuda is so damn aggressive, what types of turf would successfully compete (beyond other types of Bermuda)?

On a related topic, a hidden cost of the P2 set-up is the regular removal of Bermuda as it tries to take back the "sandscapes". I would guess that maintenance would need to be performed on a regular basis. No?


Bob,

Many years ago, a course tried to insert about a 12 inch metal barrier into the soil to separate the rough from the fairway in order to impede encroachment.

I would imagine, with DEP, that this would be impossible today, let alone costly.

I believe that only bermuda can out compete bermuda in the south.